Legality of using knives purely as impact weapons...

[autoopen]

I carry a CRKT M21-14 as an EDC. It is a long knife and made of aluminum and works well closed as a fistload or impact weapon. If I was attacked and pulled it in self-defense but kept it closed how does the law view that?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

self defense is difficult to prove in most incidents.

if you use a weapon, and the other person is empty handed, it will likely not be viewed favorably.

here in ca, throwing a "loaded" punch or using an impact weapon could be considered "assault with a deadly weapon".

check your local laws on the use of impact weapons, billys, or saps.

 

[glistam]

I carry a CRKT M21-14 as an EDC. It is a long knife and made of aluminum and works well closed as a fistload or impact weapon. If I was attacked and pulled it in self-defense but kept it closed how does the law view that?

This is missing the mark a bit: You're talking about usage in self-defense. SD questions referring to actual usage are largely impossible to answer, because appropriateness is based on the situation and what can be proven after the fact, especially if there are no witnesses. "Legality" would be a misnomer. Using force against another person is subject to the laws of assault, battery, and attempted murder, and using one implement or another (or using it a certain way) is besides the point. The point is if it was appropriate for that specific situation.

Now granted, I personally am of the opinion that impact damage is superior to edged weapon damage in self-defense situations most of the time, in that the BG will feel it more that a stab wound. In SD, the goal is to make them hurt and stop attacking, not make them dead 30 minutes later after they're done beating you.

 

[TOM1960]

self defense is difficult to prove in most incidents.

if you use a weapon, and the other person is empty handed, it will likely not be viewed favorably.

here in ca, throwing a "loaded" punch or using an impact weapon could be considered "assault with a deadly weapon".

check your local laws on the use of impact weapons, billys, or saps.

Same thing over here in MA. Kicking a person in MA with shoes on is A&B/Dangerous Weapon-shod foot (felony). You could face a felony charge for having a roll of nickels in your fist when you punch someone.

 

[cmdionne]

While you might still end up facing charges, using a mini-maglight or a sturdy pen or something other than a knife may be a better choice. I am not a lawer, and this is only my opinion. Perhaps you could find an attorney in your area who has experience with these sort of cases and he could give you some real advice.

Also I would think that drawing your knife to only use it as an impact device might actually weaken your self defense case. A likely arguement against you could be "If you were truly in fear for your life, why would you only use it as an impact weapon, why not deploy the blade and use it that way", especially if you end up seriously hurting someone.

I don't know what state you're in, but if a concealed carry permit is avaliable why not get one of those if you're worried about self defense?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

While you might still end up facing charges, using a mini-maglight or a sturdy pen or something other than a knife may be a better choice. I am not a lawer, and this is only my opinion. Perhaps you could find an attorney in your area who has experience with these sort of cases and he could give you some real advice.

excellent point here.

a mini mag flashlight or pen are pretty inocuous items.

in an sd situation, they become weapons of opportunity rather than weapons of choice.

 

[autoopen]

Everything you guys have said is of great interest to me. I live in the extreme leftist socialist city of Chicago. :barf: I have read the laws regarding Illinois knife laws but don't remember any mention of how a knife being used EXCLUSIVELY closed as an impact weapon is viewed by the courts here. It seems to me that in the eyes of the law you could clearly make a strong case for being in complete control of yourself and that by intentionally not opening the knife you made a contentious choice not to use deadly force to end the confrontation. Especially if you were in a crowded bar or other crowded place where witnesses had seen that you didn't initiate violence but only responded in pure self defense using the least deadly instrument you had at your disposal, no?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

it is unlikely a knife is going to be listed anywhere as an impact weapon. and you will never convince anyone in a courtroom a knife is not a deadly weapon, regardless of how you choose to use it.

if used as such, it will be treated as a billy/sap (also easily a deadly weapon), which in ca is covered under the same area of the penal code.

it is always going to be difficult to argue for the use of a weapon by a civilian. even used in your own home you could expect to have to answer in court.

in a bar, even more so. you have no legal requirement to stand your ground. even if you don't initiate a confrontation, what prevents you from walking away? im not suggesting you cannot defend yourself, but pulling any weapon in a bar is just a bad idea.

there are far too many scenario possibilities. i believe you are looking for a definitive answer, but one does not exist. each situation is different, and trying to "what if" is just going to frustrate you (and us).

and witnesses are by no means a guarantee. a room with 25 witnesses will garner 25 different variations of the events. people see things differently based on their own biases and life experiences and this will be seen in how they verbalize their interpretation of what happened. once in the courtroom, several months or even years later, their recollection will have changed, sometimes dramatically.

 

[autoopen]

MORIMOTOM, I'd like to play Devil's advocate for just a post or two more with you. I'm not trying to anger you, I just like your arguments and would be appreciative if I could learn a few more things from you here.

Let's say we are still dealing with the exact same situation I described above but I don't have a knife, I only have a blunt but solid metal Leatherman Multi-Tool, does that change the legality of the encounter?
Or even if I just had a cheap Cold Steel Nylon KOGA as a fistload and/or impact weapon?
Is it the use of a bladed weapon that instantly makes people mentally go to worst case scenarios or would the Leatherman and/or KOGA present the same problem in the eyes of the court?

Thank you again for sharing your insight! It's much appreciated.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

MORIMOTOM, I'd like to play Devil's advocate for just a post or two more with you. I'm not trying to anger you, I just like your arguments and would be appreciative if I could learn a few more things from you here.

no problem, ill give it a shot.

Let's say we are still dealing with the exact same situation I described above but I don't have a knife, I only have a blunt but solid metal Leatherman Multi-Tool, does that change the legality of the encounter?

in "letter of the law" terms, i would say no, it does not change anything. it would be no different than a beer bottle, pool cue, or barstool.

Or even if I just had a cheap Cold Steel Nylon KOGA as a fistload and/or impact weapon?
Is it the use of a bladed weapon that instantly makes people mentally go to worst case scenarios or would the Leatherman and/or KOGA present the same problem in the eyes of the court?

Thank you again for sharing your insight! It's much appreciated.

many people are more offended by knives than even firearms. there is something inherently "personal" about having a knife used as a weapon.

perhaps it is because everyone has been cut at some point in their lives, and the amount of blood that seeps from even a small wound can be substantial. perhaps it is simply the proximity to attacker and being able to look in their eyes.

legally different? for the most part, not really. adw (assault w/ deadly weapon) is adw, regardless of the weapon used. the seriousness of the "crime" will be largely determined by the extent of injury to the other party.

perceptually, vastly different. if you pull a knife and use it in any way, you are going to be asked why you carry it. it will eventually lead to questioning about the fact that you are carrying a weapon, since it is no longer just at tool.

in and of themselves, most knives are legal. we use them for various tasks every day. from food prep to cutting cardboard to opening mail.

that cs impact thing is probably illegal all by itself in most urban areas. it serves no purpose other than to load a punch.

there are other exigencies that may aid you in defense of the use of a weapon. if you are outnumbered, your opponent is physically much bigger, you attempt to leave but are cut off, you get cornered, etc.

the one thing which you will no doubt have to establish, is that you feared great bodily injury or death. but if you are fighting with a weapon, the other guy is going to say the same thing.

something else to consider: if you anticipate a physical confrontation, and take out your knife in preparation (open or closed), you may now be guilty of brandishing a weapon and escalating the situation.

 

[Todd A]

Since our laws are differant based on where you live you should consult an attorney.

At least you will need to read through the laws on self defense and weapons, and any cites listed for your state.


The below only counts in a true case of self-defense and is only my opinion based on the laws in my state.

In my state a legal knife is not a deadly weapon.

Cited. 5 Conn. Cir. Ct. 313. Knife not coming within description of statute cannot be included as "any other dangerous or deadly weapon" and is not within prohibition of this section. Id., 551.

How it is used can make it a dangerous instrument,only if you intend to use it to harm another.

Evidence was sufficient to prove that a knife or similar instrument was used thereby constituting a dangerous instrument. 98 CA 13.

Dangerous instrument as defined in Subsec. is "any instrument, article or substance which, under the circumstances in which it is used ... or threatened to be used, is capable of causing death or serious physical injury". 81 CA 367

If you use a legal item on another, you can claim self defense as a defense against a weapons charge

When item that defendant is charged with having in the vehicle is an otherwise legal item and did not become a dangerous instrument within meaning of section until it was used in self-defense, defendant may raise Sec. 53a-19 as a defense. Id.

 

[glistam]

I think morimotom has articulated the most important aspects of this issue. Most weapon laws are with regard to carrying/possession and what have you. These are crimes against public safety. The crimes of assault and it's many derivatives (aggravated, w/ intent to maim, w. intent to kill, simple assault, second degree assault) are crimes against the person. Frequently these two classes of crime are not directly connected. Such crimes rarely have any set, enumerated "rules" on what object is more deadly that another, and what is "legal." It is down to the totality of the incident in the eyes of those that have to make that judgement call. We on this forum cannot speak for every officer, every civilian witness, and every judge or jure.

 

[TOM1960]

no problem, ill give it a shot.



in "letter of the law" terms, i would say no, it does not change anything. it would be no different than a beer bottle, pool cue, or barstool.




many people are more offended by knives than even firearms. there is something inherently "personal" about having a knife used as a weapon.

perhaps it is because everyone has been cut at some point in their lives, and the amount of blood that seeps from even a small wound can be substantial. perhaps it is simply the proximity to attacker and being able to look in their eyes.

legally different? for the most part, not really. adw (assault w/ deadly weapon) is adw, regardless of the weapon used. the seriousness of the "crime" will be largely determined by the extent of injury to the other party.

perceptually, vastly different. if you pull a knife and use it in any way, you are going to be asked why you carry it. it will eventually lead to questioning about the fact that you are carrying a weapon, since it is no longer just at tool.

in and of themselves, most knives are legal. we use them for various tasks every day. from food prep to cutting cardboard to opening mail.

that cs impact thing is probably illegal all by itself in most urban areas. it serves no purpose other than to load a punch.

there are other exigencies that may aid you in defense of the use of a weapon. if you are outnumbered, your opponent is physically much bigger, you attempt to leave but are cut off, you get cornered, etc.

the one thing which you will no doubt have to establish, is that you feared great bodily injury or death. but if you are fighting with a weapon, the other guy is going to say the same thing.

something else to consider: if you anticipate a physical confrontation, and take out your knife in preparation (open or closed), you may now be guilty of brandishing a weapon and escalating the situation.

The Cold Steel "Koga" mini-baton is nothing more than a glorified pocket stick, or Yawara stick, if you will. Heck, I could save the price of the product plus the shipping/handling (probably $20 total!) by sawing off a six-inch length of broom handle and smoothing the ends for better concealed carry. You are right; it is a fist-load and there is no way of arguing around that simple fact if indeed it ends up in court. Most people do get themselves in trouble in bars, after a bit too much "liquid stupid" gets consumed. I avoid them myself. If I want a drink, I'll have one at home or in a nice restaurant with my girlfriend.