LEO encounters in CA

N

nuciform

Joined
Dec 2, 2003
Messages
41
I wanted to share my own adventures in lawful knife ownership in California and see how they stack up to others.

I carry a knife of some kind virtually every day. I live in Oakland and work in Berkeley. I'll talk about how that affects my EDC down at the bottom.

Encounter 1: For a little over a year my EDC was a Cold Steel Mini Pal attached to a keyring. It was a great, handy knife to have around and amazingly useful for its under 2" blade size (I still have it but the sheath is worn down and does not retain properly anymore).

I was pulled over late one night in Castro Valley. My Mini Pal was hanging from my keychain on my car. The rookie officer took all my info and went back to the car taking no notice of it. Long-story-short, he tried to arrest me telling me I stole my car. He patted me down, handcuffed me the whole deal. After figuring out it was a mistake he sent me back to my car where another officer chatted me up to see I was indeed who I said I was. Neither officer noticed or commented on the knife on the keychain or indeed the pepper spray which was attached to my belt when I was patted down and handcuffed. Eventually I was excused none the worse for criminal record.

Encounter 2: I was entering a state building as part of my work and was asked to go through a metal detector. I had worked there several times in the past few months and was carrying a serrated Spyderco Centofante C25 as I often had in the past but for some unknown reason they put me through a metal detector this time. The private security guard asked me if I needed it and I stated yes since it was my work knife. If you're keeping score the C25 has a 2 7/8" blade which is legit for the city and also under the (stated) limit for state offices.

She would not drop the subject and eventually we brought the local Highway Patrol Officer into it. After seeing the knife the officer basically laughed and waved it off and I was allowed to keep it without further issue.

EDC: As of today I no longer carry any kind of fixed blade anywhere that's not my trunk or backwoods somewhere. I carry mostly the Spyderco above or the recently acquired Spyderco Navigator in Almite aluminum.

At work I rarely use my knife in front of coworkers because it's not worth the hassle, so I often go for a Swiss-tech utilikey or something equally harmless with a screwdriver attached which seems to be the magic combination.

Any other personal experiences where the bounds of knife carry laws were tested?
 
Unsolicited rant: I am running out of places I feel I can carry any knife over 3" even for legit work purposes like the laws are supposed to allow for.

I have had people react badly to knives as small as the 1" bladed Mini Pal and because of the dirk/dagger laws I don't even feel comfortable carrying that anymore. Today I am not sure I should have carried the Mini Pal the places I did and if the officers would have made a case of it if they had noticed it.

OK, rant over ;)

On a personal note, people I have known personally who are members of law enforcement have been very cool about knives. More so in fact than most of the general population. Your mileage in an individual encounter may vary. Of course folks tend to be pretty liberal here overall in the San Francisco bay area and don't really like evil pointy or shooty things.
 
I also live in the People's Republic of Commiefornia. I learned about 2 years ago that there are no state laws regulating the length of a knife, with exceptions some of which you stated. Cities can have more restrictive laws. Where I work my company has put a limit at 3 inches, except if needed as a work tool. That said I have never been hasseled at work for wearing a fixed blade within the limits or carrying any pocket knife as people know I am not a threat to them. I know people who carry larger knives without problems.

Remember before 9-11 we could carry pocket knives on most airlines. I always had my Swiss Army knife which I put in the basket while going through security and no one gave it a second thought.

The thing that needs to be taught to the people you refer to as liberals, and I refer to as Commies, is that evil exists in the hearts of men - not in objects such as knives and guns. It would be more effective for legislation to be passed outlawing evil hearts than more laws regulating knives, guns, etc.:mad:

Keep the faith.
 
Back in the day--1997--I was carrying a Spyderco Civilain. I saw an officer in his car and jogged accross Post Street in SF to ask him a question. The officer was eating and he saw me run up and gasped as he saw my Civilian. He relaxed about as fast as he went to condition red but none-the-less, . . .
 
Theosis said:
Back in the day--1997--I was carrying a Spyderco Civilain. I saw an officer in his car and jogged accross Post Street in SF to ask him a question. The officer was eating and he saw me run up and gasped as he saw my Civilian. He relaxed about as fast as he went to condition red but none-the-less, . . .
Click to expand...

Were you like, waving around while talking to him or did he just spot it clipped to your pocket? I often wonder how many others instinctively spot a knife clipped to a pocket. I would imagine a larger number of LEO do vs. regular folks because they are more likely to carry them that way themselves even if they're not knife nuts per se.

I spotted my realtor carrying a Spyderco when shopping for houses and he turned out to be a collector, which is pretty sweet, showed me his Sebenzas and a bunch of Spydercos and Benchmades when I went to pick up paperwork from him after that.
 
It seems to me that LEOs seem quite unperturbed about knives compared to private security, who often go ape over blades that are quite legal. On the issue of approaching police officers seated in their cars, the wise thing to do is get their visual attention attention from a discreet distance before approaching closer with hands visible.
 
The knife was clipped in the front right pocket, and he saw me from the other side of the 4 lane road but it wasn't until he saw the pocket clip that he about dropped his sandwich. At San Francisco State the knife laws there border on Draconian, but really, what would one expect from that school (which I totally love, BTW.)
 
Let's not forget that there is an accessory available for those tiny mini-revolvers, (handguns), that makes the revolvers into a "folder" and has a pocket clip, plus there are pocket clips made to attach directly to various handguns. It would be possible for a large folding knife to appear to be more than it is at first glance. Plus, there is the shock factor of a large knife. Most of the population carries tiny folders with sub-three-inch blades. I am a police officer, and some of my fellow officers do pronounced double-takes upon seeing some of my larger-handled folders. (Spyderco Gunting and Civilian, Strider AR, Tarani/Blade-tech Masters Karambit) My original 1980's Al Mar SERE folder, which is larger than the current SERE folders, really caused some jaws to drop back in those days. Several older officers scolded me for carrying an illegally long blade, and several times I pulled out my pocket ruler to show them that it had a mere 4.5-inch blade, a full inch under the legal limit in Texas. (Not that it mattered anyway; the Texas Penal Code allows peace officers to carry ANY weapon. We just have to stay within federal law.) I like large-handled folders because they can do double duty as impact and pressure-point weapons, have more leverage as rescue tools, and, all else being equal, a larger lock is a stronger lock.
 
Hey RexG, I am a south Georgia LEO(Savannah). The only thing that I dislike is when people run up on me. Sometimes we get caught unaware and our reactions are greatly exaggerated from our normal response. This usulally causes me to covertly(sitting in car) draw my duty weapon, esp while on a tour of Mids.

This is my belief; so long as your a law abiding citizen, you have not caused me grief or pose a threat to my safety or my partners, I'll over look some weapons carried or how they are carried. Now I may make you remove these weapons from your person until our contact is completed. If you get rightous over your knifes/guns removal, then I may arrest, take the weapon as evidence and disposal. This I only do as a last resort.

Last thing, not all LEOs react/act the same. While I may be more liberal in my beliefs, others in my line of work do not believe the same.
 
I live in L.A. Here's two encounters I had.

#1) Pulled over for speeding on my motorcycle in L.A. LAPD Motor Officer noticed the handle of my CS Vaquero Grande sticking out the top of it's kydex sheath clipped in my front pocket. His eyes got big when I handed it to him. He asked me what the knife was for and I told him I used at the print shop I work at. He said it was illegal to have a blade over 4" in CA. I respectfully told him that my understanding was that ther was no length restriction for folders in CA. He said okay and handed it back to me.

#2) Went to a county hospital to visit someone. Had to go through a metal detector. Was told by the "guard" that I couldn't go in with my BM 970. I got a little pissed and mouthed off some. I thought I could bully the "rent-a-cop" into letting me in. This was until he threatened to arrest me. It was then that I realised that this guy was an L.A. county sherrif. Opps! :eek: I left quick and put the knife in the car.

Bottom line. If you're cool and pass the "attitude check" IME 99% of the time you'll be cool.
 
I've been carrying knives of various blade lengths with various opening and locking mechanisms in California for the past 10 years. I've even blantantly (bad on me) toted concealed fixed blades as well as automatics and balisongs on occassion. I haven't had a L.E.O. experience yet where a knife was directly addressed. I was once at an outdoor shooting range in the hills (in the car getting ready to leave) when a deputy pulled up to do a check (lots of problems with illegal classIII in the hills). The deputy asked me about my gun (whether it was registered etc.) and never even wanted to see it. He then asked me about knives (did I have any on my person etc.). I told him I had a folder in my right front pocket and he didn't even confirm it (was also wearing a concealed neck knife). Other experiences I've had have been while working in private security, where the police officers I've spoken to have asked me about the knife laws, not the other way around. Your mileage may vary, but your attitude, dress, and behavioral mannerisms will validate you or sink your ship IMHO.
 
California knife laws

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In response: Welcome to the Kommunist Kommonwealth of Kalifornia!

My understanding is that Kalifornia State Government has it's laws and each city is free to enact it's own.

The State of Kalifornia says a common folding pocket knife that is actually folded is legal to carry concealed, regardless of blade length.

Los angeles County/City uses the same format of that law but limits the length of the blade to three inches (as do Federal facilities everywhere).

As a federal law enforcement officer of nearly 34 years, I have been involved in both state and federal cases involving items that are classed as weapons simply because the item "was used as a weapon".

One case involved a bamboo fishing pole that was classified as "a dangerous weapon capable of inflicting death or great bodily injury" because it was used by a 58 year old man to defend himself against a drunken neighbor who attacked him in the driveway of his home with a claw hammer.

Apparently Kalifornia creats bench-made laws to fit the situation rather that letting the situation dictate which law to apply.

A bit of advise is appropriate in Kalifornia; consider any knife as equal to a firearm in its' use.

If you are in IMMEDIATE danger of death or great bodily harm,
If the antagonist has the INTENT to do it,
If the antagonist has the ABILITY to do it,
If you have NO REASONABLE OPPORTUNITYto escape;
Then you may use ONLY that force necessary to stop his felonious action.

If you are involved in a very BAD situation:
Tell the responding officers,
I was being attacked and in fear of my life. I did what I could to save my life.
I have been severely traumatized and in need of immediate medical attention.
I cannot give any further statement now until I speak to my attorney.
Present your identification.
THEN SHUT UP AND SAY NOTHING MORE, let your attorney speak for you.
(Don't worry, ask for a Public Defender even before you hire a private attorney.)

If you are told you MUST give a statement immediately to aid in the investigation, that's bulls...t. The LA area has probably the best homicide/street crimes investigation unit in the world. They certainly don't need a statement from you to do their job before you consult with an attorney.

If you are told that delaying an immediate statement makes you look guilty and telling the truth will set you free, that is also bulls...t. It makes you look smarter and they will be more careful not to violate your rights.

One final thing; ANYTHING you say to a L.E.O. before you are in custody and read your Miranda rights is admissable in court under the "spontaneous utterance" exception to admissible evidence. Let me repeat my prior statement: "SHUT UP AND SAY NOTHING..." IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!

Feel free to check my profile and/or contact me with questions at lenmattsen@hotmail.com.
God bless one and all.
Len Mattsen
 
Good points. There has been a lot of quasi-legal advice given on the forums lately but I think that's probably the best: shut up and call your lawyer. Be non-threatening when dealing with law-enforcement, be aware of your rights as best you can but keep in mind that people are only human-even if you know or think you know these particular laws better than them it pays to be careful.

Never ever say you're carrying anything for defensive purposes unless you are 100% sure you are legally permitted to (i.e. you have a permit or are in our own home). If you can defend yourself with it it's a weapon and you are demonstrating your intent to use it as a weapon. And generally lying to law enforcement about this sort of thing is not a great idea. If you have a legit reason to carry a non-threatening pocketknife that's otherwise legal in the jurisdiction I think it's preferable to explain it that way and generally be cooperative, but be very careful. In California I personally think any kind of fixed blade, automatic knife, balisong is not a good idea to have on you for any reason.

A lot of municipalities have "good faith" aspects to the laws so for lawful recreation or work purposes you have some legal protection but the concept of what's good faith carry is pretty abstract.

The law is for the most part still on our side when it comes to legal carry of one handed openers, CA special autos, even assisted openers and some fixed blades that don't fit the dirk and dagger definitions. But the line can get blurred very easily and the specifics of certain laws change as you go from area to area so it pays to be cautious in these encounters.
 
hk40lemshooter said:
Well your firsy mistake is you live in CA.
Click to expand...

I get really tired of hearing this little jibe. I grew up in much more knife and gun friendly areas, but I'm here in CA now for various reasons that I won't get into. Suffice it to say its not as simple as just packing up and leaving, or even giving in to the liberal MINORITY here. Yes I said minority. It's the vocal liberals in the bigger cities that come up with all the ridiculous gun and knife legislation, not the average Californian. It just means that those average folks need to speak up and reclaim their rights.

I apologize for going off about this matter, as I'm sure you meant your comment in jest.
 
as a LEO officer myself i would like to point out that, a lot of reaction from LEO's to knife's are connected to the amount of years they work on the street. I normally spot knives pretty fast, and most of them (90%) are low budget crap. I have found few decent (the one's we collect) knives on persons. What ALL LEO's do is "profiling" on the street. A decent, non agressive law abiding citizen that carries a knife or "weapon" will mostly NOT ever have any problem at all. I have "missed" cans of O.C. spray , and knives during routine searches on the female public, and in family cars, although they are considered a illegal weapon, because i felt that considering the circumstances the right to defend their life was more important then the fact that they where carrying a "illegal" weapon. Most cops don't go looking after the good guys, so they can get away with a lot, if they carry it as a mean of SELF-defense. People who carry weaponry as a mean of an offensive tool to use in criminal behaviour get caught pretty soon.

It's better to be judged by 12 then to be carried by 6
 
DB1 said:
I get really tired of hearing this little jibe. I grew up in much more knife and gun friendly areas, but I'm here in CA now for various reasons that I won't get into. Suffice it to say its not as simple as just packing up and leaving, or even giving in to the liberal MINORITY here. Yes I said minority. It's the vocal liberals in the bigger cities that come up with all the ridiculous gun and knife legislation, not the average Californian. It just means that those average folks need to speak up and reclaim their rights.

I apologize for going off about this matter, as I'm sure you meant your comment in jest.
Click to expand...

Well, I live in San Francisco. I'm a gun owner, a knife enthusiast and a Republican. I've been all over the world and I can say this is one of my favorite places. I can't see myself living anywhere else.

Heck, even Michael Savage loves this place. :D

As for all the CA haters out there, they are just jealous girlie-men. :p
 
I live in Ventura County, California and carry knives all the time (except to the courthouse or school property). About 8 years ago my car broke down in the town of Camarillo where I worked( normally, I'm on a Harley) and two female city police officers pulled up behind me to find out what was wrong. I expained that I was on my way to a premier and needed to get there within a few minutes, my car could wait to get towed after the premier. They offered to give me a ride to my destination and asked me if I had any weapons on my person. I instinctly said no, and we continued to determine if the car was going to impede traffic ( I was way off the road on a large paved apron) since it wasn't affecting traffic, they opened the rear of their patrol car and said they would have to pat me down for their safety. I said that I had a Spyderco Titanium Police SE in my back pocket. The driver asked why I told her before that I didn't have any weapons. I said that I did not consider my knife a weapon as it is a tool that I use every day and I just did not equate it to a "weapon" status. I explained that her mindset was different than mine due to her training and work experience. Not wrong, just a matter of reference. She said "Ok, I'll hold on to it until we drop you off and you can have your "tool" back". And that is what they did, -- even commented on the lightness of the knife as they passed it between themselves.

I think if you present the proper attitude, some respect due to any person you encounter(not just the police) and a degree of intelligence in your conversation, you find they will try to respond in kind.
 
Excellent Zeus!
My momma always told me to be polite to the police. Respectful attitude has always worked well, well enough to where several times I was the only one not arrested so i could drive the vehicle (to prevent towing) and communicate to the other guy's parents etc which jail they were in....
We were kinda wild in my younger days....but them Texas DPS sure appreciated that polite hippie kid who "Yessir'd" and No Sir'd".
Older and wiser now, still carry illegally but smart enough not to call attention to myself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top