Les Robertson is my hero....things change

[Kohai999]

BTW, I never claimed ownership to the marketing term...I just pointed out that the word tactical does have inherent parameters. As such the word has become part of the lexicon of custom knives.

Any particular reason that every other style of knife with a Damascus blade and/or natural handle materials are called Damascus knives or presentation knives. That when these materials are added to a base tactical folder....you and others do not call them Damascus or Presentation or Art knives?

I would think when you upgrade a base knife...you would also want to upgrade the category the knife would now be a part of. Especially when showing the knife to outside the custom knife community.

You guys keep trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

You might want to read my article on the cycles of custom knives in the upcoming Knives Illustrated Buying Guide.

That still doesn't explain why he decided to label those particular knives as tactical knives. Which averyone who has read this thread knows that they definitely are not. He could have called them a lot of things.

You know, a lot of folks read those books. And Blade magazine. If they keep using the term "tactical knife" incorrectly in those publications, other folks may start using it that way, too. Especially after you have shuffled off this mortal coil and are no longer around to correct them. And if enough folks use a term the same "wrong" way for a long enough period of time . . . Well, you may have noticed that Merriam-Webster leeps publishing new editions.

.
These quotes were taken from another thread....on tactical knives, and it was a good thread.

Les Robertson has spent more time working with makers of tactical knives, handling them, selling them and promoting them than just about anyone in the world. He comes onto BladeForums and gets massive amounts of mud thrown at him(not picking on you specifically Ken, bear with me), and for the most part it doesn't stick.

Now in reality, Les is not my hero, it seemed like a catchy name for a thread. Les is someone that I like to call and talk to about the knife world. In many aspects he knows more than me, and I like a pleasant chat with people who know more than I do about subjects of interest. Many of you don't like the way Les writes things, but you seem to let that dislike color the information that Les puts out.

I'll say this for the cheap seats....

LES ROBERTSON KNOWS MORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT TACTICAL KNIVES AND YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HIM!

Now, there is always a struggle for relevance in the knife world, and the fact that definitions change. Personally, I don't care what you call a knife...I either like it or I don't.

MartinR and I were chatting yesterday about how the "tactical knife" world is changing and how you youngsters are shooting yourselves in the feet and you have no taste....the folowing are my opinions, but they are opinions based upon collecting for 25 years. Some of the youngsters are not even 25 years old yet...consider that, I have been collecting knives longer than you have been alive.

"No taste":

1. titanium handle on one side, different material on the other side, started by Strider as far as I know, popularized by Hinderer and a multitude of other makers...it looks like dirty butt, like a "c" size boob on one side of a tasty beautiful woman, and a double d on the other...some people like that....I don't hang out with too many of them.

2. Long handle with a short blade in a folder...what is the point, really. A folder should jam as much blade as possible into the handle, if the maker can't do that, stick to fixed blades,

3. Blunt ends, when they should be pointy....get a pocket crowbar and carry it....The Razel by Graham is a great knife, that is not what I am talking about....a knife point should be able to penetrate something....needle sharp points are good!

4. Paying stoopid high money for unproven makers. There was a knife that sold by silent auction/bid-up at The Gathering by Todd Rexford for $17,000. WTF? I hope the buyer loves that knife because he is most likely owning that knife forever. Do you really think that Todd Rexford knives are worth upwards of $10,000? IT's not likely.

Me, Les, just about any maker and collector want the next generation of knife collectors to love their knives and be collecting for a really long time. I'm here to tell you that the examples I listed above and especially #4 is not long term desirable or maintainable.....STOP....look around, ask us old timers some questions, and try not to be put off when we tell you something you don't want to hear.

We love you, it's just hard for us to watch ourselves in your younger form making mistakes just like we did when we were your age...and it makes us grumpy....cause we want to go back and not make those mistakes, and we don't want you to make those mistakes. If you are in this game for "The Love" you are in it for the wrong reason, it's about the knives, first and foremost.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Dawkind]

Do you have a publisher?

 

[betzner]

.

LES ROBERTSON KNOWS MORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT TACTICAL KNIVES AND YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HIM!

Now, there is always a struggle for relevance in the knife world, and the fact that definitions change. Personally, I don't care what you call a knife...I either like it or I don't.

MartinR and I were chatting yesterday about how the "tactical knife" world is changing and how you youngsters are shooting yourselves in the feet and you have no taste....the folowing are my opinions, but they are opinions based upon collecting for 25 years. Some of the youngsters are not even 25 years old yet...consider that, I have been collecting knives longer than you have been alive.

"No taste":

1. titanium handle on one side, different material on the other side, started by Strider as far as I know, popularized by Hinderer and a multitude of other makers...it looks like dirty butt, like a "c" size boob on one side of a tasty beautiful woman, and a double d on the other...some people like that....I don't hang out with too many of them.

2. Long handle with a short blade in a folder...what is the point, really. A folder should jam as much blade as possible into the handle, if the maker can't do that, stick to fixed blades,

3. Blunt ends, when they should be pointy....get a pocket crowbar and carry it....The Razel by Graham is a great knife, that is not what I am talking about....a knife point should be able to penetrate something....needle sharp points are good!

4. Paying stoopid high money for unproven makers. There was a knife that sold by silent auction/bid-up at The Gathering by Todd Rexford for $17,000. WTF? I hope the buyer loves that knife because he is most likely owning that knife forever. Do you really think that Todd Rexford knives are worth upwards of $10,000? IT's not likely.

Me, Les, just about any maker and collector want the next generation of knife collectors to love their knives and be collecting for a really long time. I'm here to tell you that the examples I listed above and especially #4 is not long term desirable or maintainable.....STOP....look around, ask us old timers some questions, and try not to be put off when we tell you something you don't want to hear.

We love you, it's just hard for us to watch ourselves in your younger form making mistakes just like we did when we were your age...and it makes us grumpy....cause we want to go back and not make those mistakes, and we don't want you to make those mistakes. If you are in this game for "The Love" you are in it for the wrong reason, it's about the knives, first and foremost.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I'm one who has certainly had his share of shoot-outs with a few of our forumites here, certainly including Les. But let's give credit where credit is ABSOLUTELY due, and the first sentence in the above quote SAYS IT ALL.

And I'm in complete agreement with the remainder of the quote, as well, it being written by another of my forum adversaries ("former", that is), who I respect greatly.

Bob

 

[Kohai999]

Do you have a publisher?

Does Dr. David Darom count?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[sheathmaker]

OP: Who are you?...............and what have you done with STeven??

Seriously, STevie great insight and great post. I like Les too (most of the time).....all of the time when he sticks to knives.

Paul

 

[Chuck Gedraitis Knives]

Great post Steven and I also like Les. I spent some time talking with him about my knives and others at the ECCKS a few years ago.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

Steve, as you know the Internet is a flat medium that can make communication difficult at times, and besides that I can be kind of dense. So maybe you can be more blunt (who am I kidding - I'm sure you can) so I can understand why you included a selected potion of my post from the other thread in your OP on this thread. And please - I neither feel like you were picking on me, nor would I really care if you were. I'm just trying to understand your point better.

If you think I do not acknowledge Les Robertson's immense knowledge and insight about tactical knivess - and indeed, not just tactical knives but all sorts of knives - then I have given you the wrong idea. If you think I was and am not well aware that he knows more about tactical knives that I do, then again I have given you the wrong idea. And if you think I was "throwing mud on him" then that was not my intent (it wasn't even my intent to throw mud on Joe Kertzman, although I think if anyone would have got mud on him, it would have been him, not Les Robertson). But maybe there was some other point, so I am looking forward to hearing from you.



BTW, hard for me to see why The Razel gets some kind of Papal dispensation from your comment on pocket crowbars. But then again, I own a Hinderer XM-18, so we have already established that I have no taste and you won't hang out with me. And like I said on the other thread, I don't get the memos.

 

[Kohai999]

Steve, as you know the Internet is a flat medium that can make communication difficult at times, and besides that I can be kind of dense. So maybe you can be more blunt (who am I kidding - I'm sure you can) so I can understand why you included a selected potion of my post from the other thread in your OP on this thread. And please - I neither feel like you were picking on me, nor would I really care if you were. I'm just trying to understand your point better.

If you think I do not acknowledge Les Robertson's immense knowledge and insight about tactical knivess - and indeed, not just tactical knives but all sorts of knives - then I have given you the wrong idea. If you think I was and am not well aware that he knows more about tactical knives that I do, then again I have given you the wrong idea. And if you think I was "throwing mud on him" then that was not my intent (it wasn't even my intent to throw mud on Joe Kertzman, although I think if anyone would have got mud on him, it would have been him, not Les Robertson). But maybe there was some other point, so I am looking forward to hearing from you.

BTW, hard for me to see why The Razel gets some kind of Papal dispensation from your comment on pocket crowbars. But then again, I own a Hinderer XM-18, so we have already established that I have no taste and you won't hang out with me. And like I said on the other thread, I don't get the memos.

First bold part-because you were probably the only one in that thread who specifically stated that definitions change, and are fluid by nature...it's important when we discuss terms, especially terms that are held to a specificity, as they were in this case by Les....he stated a bunch of commonly held criteria concerning tactical knives that seem to be completely ignored by many, but especially the "youngsters" that I was addressing this post to.

Second bold part-Because the Razel was designed to be a sharp(RAZor) and a chisEL. That is what it is....it is not a crowbar pretending to be a tanto....and I'll hang out with you...just don't pull out your XM-18 while we are eating, ok?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[R.Russell]

Mr. Garsson, as a young collector I appreciate your insights and your frankness. My first two "big" purchases when I got serious about knife collecting 7 or 8 years ago were a Lum Deluxe Tanto in redwood burl and a Bogusziewski King Cobra in koa. Spoiled myself. I handled knives from Strider to Hinderer after that and lost my taste for tactical knives, moving more into the realm of traditionals and now forged fixed blades. The reasons were pretty much what you described above. When you handle a Bogusziewski folder with some nice wood slabs and put that next to a Strider, its hard not to be underwhelmed. Not to diminish Strider or any other makers that are having their day in the sun, its just that many young collectors simply don't get the exposure to the good stuff, and like me, can't make it to the big blade shows. I like the fact that the CUSTOMS forum is contemporary and I'm sure many of us younger collectors pour through the posts looking for designs that move us.
Points well taken about timeless designs and the traits you don't look for in a knife. But it would be cool to have a follow up on what does move you. And Les too.
A couple things-
1.Referring to the other tactical thread that has brought the tactical heat, it seems if you define a the tactical genre narrowly as just simple materials and titanium it just gonna run out of steam, or lend itself ultimately to production knives. No matter how you define it, I dare anyone to handle a Lum tanto with or without redwood on it and not recognize its design is severely tactical in nature and purpose. Its ungodly overbuilt, opens with a CLACK and is ground like all get out. I don't mean to offend Les here, I like the guy but judging is one thing and limiting discussion is another, can we do the dress-tac thing Les?
2.There is an interesting corollary between your post and the post about "too many good makers." I for one don't buy it. So lets see the good stuff old man!
Russell
By the way, It has to be a first to say "I love you" to your readers in a post about tactical knives Well done and thanks.

 

[JParanee]

Les definitely knows the business

The knife at the Gathering by Rexford blew my mind.

If over built frame locks are the wave of he future. All I can do is laugh

 

[Kohai999]

....But it would be cool to have a follow up on what does move you. And Les too.
There is an interesting corollary between your post and the post about "too many good makers." I for one don't buy it. So lets see the good stuff old man!
Russell

I like sexy knives, with symmetry, but that is not an absolute. Well made, good solid hardware....adjustable pivots, not chain rings, hidden pivots are cool too, as long as they can be adjusted. Bayonet grinds are sweet, as are true double tanto grinds, in the American style. Here are some visuals completely conforming to the "Les Robertson Tactical" definition, these knives have either been mine or are mine.

This knife was slab sided when I got it for a sweet price, and Kit put bolsters on it for me.

Gordon Chard is a little known maker from Iola, KS, his grinds are superb, and his fit and construction are amongst the best. This piece was made to my request, the shaped bolster was all his idea.

Razel, I gave it to a friend who uses it in the kitchen because he fell in love with it....I have a mid-tech now that I use in the garage....works really well!

Korth Amazonas by the Lala brothers....I just could not get into the way this one handled, but it is wonderful to look at.

R.J. Martin Havoc, this knife is completely different now, Silver twill G-10 scales, heat colored titanium frame, and a DLC blade, it's an edc.

R.J. Martin Avenger spear point, silver twill G-10 scales, built to order.

Tom Mayo 6k wharncliffe, I traded it for a Lee Williams flipper....good trade!

A John W. Smith Evolution that I edc quite often, it is a wonderful knife, amazing heat treat.

Hope you are happy.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Charlie Mike]

Nice blades, STeven. You have impeccable taste.

 

[Buffalohump]

STeven, I enjoy your taste in folders, especially that RJ Martin Avenger, I wish he would start making them again. I agree wholeheartedly with what you said about blade to handle ratio. This is my biggest bugbear about the Strider family, in addition to the thick blades and thick edges. I think one of the biggest issues with the new tactical folders is that many are made to be displayed in a cabinet or shown off to friends and not carried and used. I think the early ones were pretty much designed to be used. My issue with Striders is that they look great in pictures but they dont feel right in the hand. Well, not my hand anyway. I've never had an XM-18 so I cant speak about them with any authority. I did order one from Rick back in '06 but unfortunately it got lost in the chaos his organisation was experiencing at that time as his fame was taking off.

Shoot forward few years and one of the knives I carry often these days is made by Marty Young, who studied with Kit Carson. There are several things I like about this knife. The blade/handle ratio is excellent. Puh-lenty of blade there (3,5 inches - and the knife is 8,5 inches open, the perfect length in my opinion). The twin Ti slabs are substantial but not more than you need. (The knife is just over 1cm thick so it carries very flat in the pocket.) The clip is perfect, not too much retention and not too little. The opening mechanism is a disc mounted on the spine, a la Emerson. It could have a wee bit more traction, but otherwise the disc is an excellent way to get a knife open if you ask me (after the Spydie hole). The detent is good and positive. The blade is centered. The blade steel is CPM-154, an excellent steel, and the heat treat is very good. It wasn't quite as sharp as I would have liked when I got it, so I had a buddy who knows sharpening put a new edge on it with proper equipment. Now it cuts like the proverbial razor. So many things that just work, but are actually quite hard to find in a tac folder these days. Marty is a relatively new guy on the scene but he certainly keeps his prices reasonable that I can see. I'm sure he's only going to get better and better.

 

[Kohai999]

STeven, I enjoy your taste in folders, especially that RJ Martin Avenger, I wish he would start making them again.

Thanks, I really love R.J.'s work and the Avenger was a great get, shortly before he decided to focus on flippers.

The clip is perfect, not too much retention and not too little. The opening mechanism is a disc mounted on the spine, a la Emerson. It could have a wee bit more traction, but otherwise the disc is an excellent way to get a knife open if you ask me (after the Spydie hole). The detent is good and positive. The blade is centered. The blade steel is CPM-154, an excellent steel, and the heat treat is very good. It wasn't quite as sharp as I would have liked when I got it, so I had a buddy who knows sharpening put a new edge on it with proper equipment. Now it cuts like the proverbial razor. So many things that just work, but are actually quite hard to find in a tac folder these days. Marty is a relatively new guy on the scene but he certainly keeps his prices reasonable that I can see. I'm sure he's only going to get better and better.

The edge on a tactical should be SHARP, if it isn't I'll give the maker a right ration of crap.....The Young is a good solid looking package, I'd just like to see most of those holes extend to the lock side....obviously not in any way compromising the lock integrity, but there is plenty of opportunity for the maker to grab the bull by the horns and punch some holes in the obverse. I'll be watching the ethernet for posts on Marty Young.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Buffalohump]

I agree wholeheartedly. Of course, this is another area where RJ excels. His knives are like razors! I suspect proper sharpening is an art that requires a whole new set of skills, and a not inconsiderable investment in time and equipment. Unfortunately its a bit hit and miss with custom makers, in my experience. My test is that the knife must easily push cut paracord which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation. One of the reasons I am now investigating a Dozier folder. Dozier knives leave the shop sharp!

As to the relief holes, that was a special request by the guy who ordered the knife (not me). I really liked 'em. The regular Ursus comes with a plain slab, which is a bit boring. The holes really add a bit of extra something... and of course lighten the knife a bit.

The edge on a tactical should be SHARP, if it isn't I'll give the maker a right ration of crap.....The Young is a good solid looking package, I'd just like to see most of those holes extend to the lock side....obviously not in any way compromising the lock integrity, but there is plenty of opportunity for the maker to grab the bull by the horns and punch some holes in the obverse. I'll be watching the ethernet for posts on Marty Young.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Jon Brand]

I'm twenty nine. Am I a "young collector"? I've collected for 17 years and customs for 15. The problem is I know NO collectors my age.

Les always seems to know what hes talking about. I have always respected his words.

That JWS Evolution is sweet. I had two of them in maroon micarta and they are missed!

 

[Natural Outlaw]

Great thread.

However I feel it is relevant to point out that many "tactical" makers actually sell a lot of what they make and in that regard it should be noted that many "tactical" knives are produced very cost-efficient. And that all boils down to having a product you can sell without having too much time in it. If you put a lot of hours into every single knife you risk not earning anything when you sell the knife. These concerns are very real in Europe at the moment where the economy has stopped much of the knife-sales completely in its tracks. And high-quality knife makers like Finn Hampenberg (http://www.finn-hampenberg.dk/11554505) and others are selling next to nothing. In that kind of situation a knife maker can choose either to go on producing high-end stuff or instead start making more mundane knives they can actually sell (enter "tactical" knives). Finn Hampenberg has chosen to stick with his style and he wont compromise artistically. But it is a very difficult climate to be a knife maker.

 

[shunsui]

Neither Les Robertson nor Mike Stewart are ever going to be my heroes, pretty much for the same reason. On the other hand, they're both Players and I respect that. As for Les' need to make boxes for everything...., if it makes him a lot of money, more power to him; but let's face it, it's all "make believe".

 

[knifebystander]

Since I was part of that other thread I suppose I'll keep it real here and be brutally honest. Lots more 'kids' would listen to Les if he spent as much time on the knives as he does restating his résumé and putting people down who dare engage in conversation without a prerequisite background check. For someone who talks a lot about marketing prowess he does a terrible job marketing himself and eventually relies on others (consciously or not) to come to his defense just like in this thread. His own words do a terrible job conveying his vast experience as they are often wasted on bragging and childish pot-shots rather than being demonstrative of the experience he clearly has.

 

[R.Russell]

Thanks for showing those Steven, some real inspiration there, and a couple new names to me. Really like that Chard and Carson has always been a favorite.