LETS DESIGN THE PUUUURFECT WORKING FOLDER

An eight inch blade.

Jim March (California Dreamin...)
 
I think we'll have to improve on the best working folders out there already. That means keeping in mind the best that the Sebenza et.al. have to offer.

First, a quick clarification. We're designing a "working folder". That means utility folder first, defensive knife second (but still, keep defensive capabilities).

Blade:


The overall blade shape is pretty well-known. We need a generous belly for slicing, and a point that's the perfect compromise between needle-sharp and thick-but-robust. Tip-wise, I think the Krait, Sebenza, and Spyderco Goddard's tip shapes are all in the ballpark. The AFCK's tip is a bit too sharp. Overall blade shape would be a straight-clipped blade with a belly -- like the Sebenza, or the Goddard, or Mad Dog's Lab Rats.

I like the performance of recurved blades, but they're too hard to sharpen in the field. No recurve, but we'll join the blade and handle at a slight angle (aka "forward rake", aka "positive included angle") to increase slicing and slashing power.

The Sebenza has proven that a thin edge, for performance, really works for people. Justifications for thick sabre grinds don't cut it on the purfect folder. That means a high hollow grind, or full flat grind.

Steel should hold an edge first and foremost, but not be *too* brittle. BG-42 is the best of the proven stainless steels. 420V might be an option after it's a bit more proven. Any number of non-stainless steels would work. O-1, A-2, M-2, L-6 (!!)

Thumb ramp on top for control and pressure.

Handle: The most comfortable handles all seem to have slight palm swells, with indentations to lock in the pinky and index finger (the Krait is the notable exception, I can't figure out why it's so comfy!). A *small* dropped guard of some sort up front is nice, too.

Handle material I'm fairly agnostic about. I love G-10 with titanium liners, but I know some people are sick of it.

Opening Mechanism: A hole if you can figure out how to work it into the design without being too unsightly. A thumb disk otherwise. Absolutely no thumb stud.

Lock: NO LINER LOCKS! Again, the Sebenza has shown us that an absolutely reliable, incredibly strong lock is a must. Integral lock, axis lock, some other proprietary lock that is strong and can be manipulated with one hand are all okay. Liner lock bad.

In conclusion:

My perfect utility folder is not that far off from a 4"-bladed, folding version of Mad Dog's Lab Rat, now that I read it. Add a thumb disk, thumb ramp, and a capable lock, and you're there. Offer a version in BG-42 and another in O-1, A-2, M-2, or other non-stainless steel.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 

Um...let's see...

Blade - the ideal shape for me would be a drop point, preferably around the 3.5 to 4 inch length. Put a thumb ramp on there to aid in applying pressure to the blade. I've got a thing for partially serrated blades, so this one's got to have them! Hmm...blade steel - I like any one of the high performance stainless varieties - BG42, ATS-34, CPM440V. Of the three, I'd go the CPM route. Opener would be a Spydie hole. Finish would be like what Greg Lightfoot uses on some of his folders - "satin frost", which hides scratches that may occur during use.

Handle - something ergonomic and with an integral finger guard. Dual ti liners, G-10 scales. Pocket clip would be one of those deep pocket carry types (a la EDI) bolted to to the pivot end for tip down carry. How about dressing up the liners a bit too by jeweling them? That would add a nice touch. OAL would be around 8-9 inches.

Lock mechanism - side lock is the only way to go - liner lock® or integral Sebenza style.

Well, there ya go! Darrel, I'll give you my mailing address so you can send this knife to me
wink.gif




 
First, not a liner lock! Enough already!

An Axis lock like Benchmade has looks promising but, a traditional lock back is my pick for a work knife. A lock back knife holds up very well over time and is very strong. It is a proven design success as witnessed by the pockets of so many average people.

Give me a choice of blade steel. Not just stainless even if it is BG42. CPM M4 looks promising here as well as the traditional proven steels.

Offer more then one size, after all, we have different size shoes don't we? Should the same hold true for a knife? My father has hands that are gargantuan, mine or pretty average, and my mom has small dainty hands.

For general material and constrution, pick the things that hold well over time and heavy use. Wood looks pretty but, compared to the other choices out there, is a poor choice for long term use.

Something that looks non-threatening is nice as well, after all we all go through metal dectectors at the airport, courthouse, school...these days. Low profile eases the hassles of life. Office sheeple are a factor too. The Sebenza seems to shine here.

Sid
 
My ideal folder would be:

Blade: 3.5"- 4", fairly thin blade with flat grind. I prefer a opening hole to a thumb stud. Good belly for slicing. Sharp point is not important to me. Recurve blade is nice in cutting but pain to be resharpened so I'll prefer a straight edge. If they will be serrations, I'll like it to be placed anteriorly like in the "Krait".

Blade steel should be stainless for the ease of maintainance. CPM 420V should be very nice.

Lock : a nicely executed liner lock with double Ti liners should be alright.

G10, micarta, or a nice hard wood would be nice scales for a working knife.

Joe Leung



[This message has been edited by JoeL (edited 10-15-98).]
 
-3.75 to 3.95 inches of blade

-.125 inch thick

-recurved or positive included angle (forward rake)

-flat ground

-false edge on top extending 1/3 to 1/2 back from tip

-spine descends from handle in a straight line to a point slightly above center line of knife

-one hand opening, I would like to see an oval hole, kind of eye-shaped

-full titanium liners

-liner lock, or other lock, I have faith in liner locks made by people like Darrell Ralph, and the handle design I want necessitates something like a liner or axis

-index indentation, moon (like the Krait), or finger swell

-clip holes pre-drilled through into liner or bolsters for pivot up and pivot down, left and right carry

-ironwood burl, or coco bolo curl scales, a wood with good figure and natural oil

-titanium bolsters fore and aft full sculpting through handle( I am willling to carry something slightly bigger if it means it fits my hands better)

This knife would look beautiful and graceful and innocent, eliciting comments from people all the time, but with performance under the hood...

Darell Ralph quoted me a price, and boy am I tempted. Maybe I should scrape, that way I can get it before he is Jess Horn.

Marion David Poff
 
Hey wait a min.......
This is truly for your puuuuurfect knife.
I just like to see what the knife folks really like. Its easy to sit in your own world and dream of what you all like. I want REAL answers .. Tell the truth..
Do the locks on knives need to be changed, blade shapes, handles, . Are we all tired of THE LOOK? What can we do to improve the customer satisfaction. SAY IT ! Inquiring minds want to know!
Damn Lets make a good knife here!!!!!!!!

 
Darrel,

Blade shapes aren't bad as available today such as on the Sebenza and Genesis. The chisel ground crap has to go though....too limited.

You raise the issue of locks and handles...yes, anything that makes a folder closer in structural integrity to a fixed blade would be a good move. Now handles are another issue...and I'm glad you brought it up. Most every folder is flat so it can be carried unobtrusively I suppose in ones pocket. But a good fixed blade has an oval ergonmic handle. Why is it that basically only the Gerber Gator exists as a folder with a real ergonomically comfortable handle? Yeah, folks tell me that they're not needed as the pressures and shock generated by the use of the puny blades in folders simply doesn't require the same benefits mandated in a fixed blade knife's handle design. Phooey!

Darrel wants to know what I'd like to see and that is a spinup on the Gerber Gator's ergo handle in spaceage materials (no, not a copy or even close but round and comfy like it), with a massive new lockwork, and a traditional dropped point, flat ground out of CPM420V. A thumb stud ala the Sebenza or Genesis works for me too! (We've talked seperately about the utilitarian working folder in talonite....well here you have it!)

-=[Bob]=-

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 10-16-98).]
 
Darrel --

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at when you re-ask us to design our own knives. Maybe it's "the look" you'd like examined. As far as aesthetics go, as long as the knife is functional, I'd rather that it be pretty than not. And the fact is, you're way better than me at making a knife look awesome. I feel the right approach is to give basic design parameters, and then say "Darrel, make it purdy"
smile.gif


With minor dissent here and there, there's a bit of a trend in opinions -- straight clipped blades with plenty of belly and a forward rake, hole openers, leading-edge stainless and non-stainless steels, and locks other than liner locks. That's a pretty good start. Make it purdy!

Joe
 
BOB I have good news for you.
I will talk about what I know to be true.
Go to:
www.outdooredge.com
There handles FIT your hand. The clip is nice .. These are a production knife.. .. There quality is very good.
David is moving into the design folder market. I wont say who's knives are being produces.. but they fit alot of your reqiuerments. I know there production knives BUT.. For an everyday carry I have one .
If you loose it its not a bunch of money .

Some of the Ideas posted in this thread will be entered into my next design as a work folder.
The design is in the works . I just want to here from those who use..
This is not an add for the next work type folder I just want truth in using. The grip idea for the next folder will shine. Its fantastic. The body will be sculpted to the hand as you mentioned. Materials will be the best for all around use.
AS for the lock well theres new ideas on the
way..
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU FOLKS WANT TO SEE in a folder..
What about clip design. Clips take away the feel in the hand I think. Any ideas??????

What do you all think about the clip 1/4 being sharp for the Martial arts folks but still strong..

LETS DO THIS>>>>

 
Darrel --

Regarding the clip... Will this thing have titanium scales? If so, maybe you can mill out part of the scale and submerge the clip slightly into it, leaving a lip at the bottom to catch. If that stretches the clip out too much, you can submerge just the top 3/4 of the clip, then let it gently rise until the bottom lip is finally flush with the outside of the scale. So the clip comes out a bit when it catches the lip of a pocket, but when you deploy the knife it settles into the handle somewhat. Kinda like a hide-a-clip (I'll donate that to you for a trademark
smile.gif
)! BTW, the clip on your Krait is wonderfully done, it doesn't take away from hand-feel at all.

One thing I'd like to stress again. One reason the Sebenza is so popular is because it's got a thin edge and a belly, so it cuts well. Most makers go *way* too far on strength, and sacrifice performance too much. I don't care how strong or cool-looking a sabre-grind is, gimme PERFORMANCE!

I'm going to try to describe my clip idea again. This would work best for a butt-mounted clip. Mill a slit for the clip, it's (say) 4mm wide, 2 mm deep and goes up at an angle, so that finally it rejoins the level of the outside scale. The top of the clip screws into the slot, then goes upwards. Once it reaches the level of the handle scale --completely flush -- it moves down along the handle like a conventional clip. Once we reach the part where the slot rejoins the handle (remember, the slot was angled upwards), we have the end of the clip with its lip. So the clip is shaped like the clip on the krait, but the top part is submerged and 3/4 of the clip is directly flush with the handle scale.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Of course, you can't mill too deeply, you still have to screw the clip-screw into something -- the rest of the scale, plus the liner. Or, better idea. The clip can mount like the Spyderco Military's clip -- one wings that get screwed through the entire scale, but meanwhile the clip itself is flush.

Man, I like this idea.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Sorry to be so chatty, but I worked out how to take the hide-a-clip and implement a Genesis-style deep-pocket design. The only things protruding from the handle should be the lip and the screws. Are my descriptions understandable, or do I need to fax Darrel some pics?


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Were on the same track Joe.. hahahha I hate clips . So I designed a semi flush type. It will be on the model knife I do. Great minds think alike..
I have it slated for a drop point and some newer Ideas for handle material I happend onto a better grip style.. for the side plates. It will be solid ti like the Krait but much more fashioned for the hand ..
 
Dont get me wrong here. I am just looking for all the things I missed on the first model knife.. This one will be much more of a good looking well designed everyday carry..

 
I had an idea because I hate pocket clips...
It adds an extra piece but I still kinda like the idea.

a low profile kydex sheath...with a deep pocket clip on the sheath (reversible for left hand carry) and the front where the spine of the blade sits would be cut out...
the blade would be designed with a bump on the top of the spine towards the back (maby
look like a guard) and this would sit in the cut out space, So you would stick your finger in your pocket...and pull up using the little bump deal on the blade. There would have to be enough tension on the blade to keep it shut while this is done...once in your hand (it should be easy to get in your hand with a twist of the wrist bringing the index finger to the top that the knife would
land in your hand) push on the thumbstud, pass the initial tension and the blade would use the force of that to open. The opening should be very fast once the tension is passed.

Pro's
No clip.

Sits in kydex rather than against fabric so I would think it would be easier to get out, but I have not tested this in any way.

With the molded side of the sheath on the inside, the knife wouldnt print at all.

Free sheath!

Con's

Extra part to loose.

Handle would always be going in and out and would limit the kind of matirial used.


Thats my idea.

[This message has been edited by ShadedDude (edited 10-17-98).]
 
Darrel

I like handles that fit my hand well, but one that fits my hand my not fit another guy's hands well (okay, so I love to state the obvious). Anyway, that's one reason I don't like a handle to be *too* sculpted -- for reasons of fit, and because it limits the positions you can put your hand in. So instead of say, finger grooves, I like the Loveless-like handle design where there's a palm swell, then graceful curves where the index finger and pinky go. Just pointing out, don't try to get too fancy on the handle -- get just fancy enough, but no more than that
smile.gif


Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Darrel,

Checked out the page you supplied for the Outdoor Edge and realized that I have handled these before. They feel better than 95% of the folders out there but they still, in my view, fall short of that full natural grip the Gator gives. In other words in addition to having the correct fore to aft curve for the palm and curves or cutouts for the fingers, the Gator has pronounced curvature to the scales from top to bottom along the entire length. It is more of an oval shape that you'd find in a fixed blade.

My point in my original suggestion was to avoid flat scales and go for scales with high curvature. Couple those scales to a handle frame that is ergonomically designed and we're there.

RE: blades...I'm with you... a nice flat ground drop point.

Cheers!

-=[Bob]=-
 
OK, you got me going now...

Trash the clip...

Go with the slim Kydex belt mount like REKAT has. Or I will call you and tell you about my other ideas...

bald1-- I agree with you totally about the Gator handle, the only thing I would change is make it more oval in cross-section, and add grooves to the sides fore and aft, both sides to facilitate gripping... Imagine the grooves in the Stryker, the one to lead your finger to the disk??? Now make those deeper and horizontally oriented, as opposed to angled, your index and pinky would fall into those. Before anyone mentions finger grooves, these are to be graceful, meant to coaxe your fingers into a natural grip... And yes, these would not fit everyone, but I believe they could be made so that eight out of ten would find them perfect or very nearly perfect... This way, there would be indexing and grip guides on both planes of the handle.

Oh, and people keep talking about drop points, for strict utility they are without peer, but for varied uses I think a clip point is better, no curve on the top to increase drag.

Sharpening the top edge could be very good....

And last, the only other thing I think is often forgot is the total package, how the blade shape blends into the handle shape. Does it look like a blade and a handle or a knife??????? You look at a Leopard or a Lion or a Cheetah and you see just that, a lion, cheetah, or leopard, not a head, body and tail, etcetera... A good example I think is some of Onion's work, very holistic in it's approach, Dozier does good with that as well.

Marion David Poff

Sorry, that came off as formal, please excuse that and peer through to the content... I do not have time to rewrite it...

[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 10-17-98).]
 
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