Letter from US Customs Service regarding CRKT Seizures

geobar

geobar

Joined
Jul 20, 1999
Messages
574
I got a letter from the US Customs Service today. I emailed my Congressman Kenny Hulshof when news of the seizure first broke. Mr. Hulshof contacted the USCS and asked them to respond to me directly! It said 49 of the 50 models were released on October 23rd (old news) and further stated the 50th model was released on November 6th (new news to me). The most interesting statment in the letter was:

"The knives were seized from CRKT, because they were believed to fall under the provisions of the Switchblade Knife Act (15 U.S.C. section 1241-1244) and, therefore, prohibited entry into the United States. The Supervisory Import Specialist made this determination because by loosening the screw on the knives it allowed them to be opened with a "flick of the wrist.""

It sounds to me like the USCS modified the knives to make them fail and I find that irritating to say the least. Isn't that going a wee bit too far? How many knife companies ship Allen Wrenches with their knives, or sell Torx kits so you can adjust blade tension. Rant off.

[This message has been edited by geobar (edited 12-28-2000).]
 
These types of actions by gov't organizations will only get worse, IMO. Bush may slow some of it, but he will not stop any of it. 2004 will most likely see Hillary in office, if not Gore. Between the ATF, Customs, and the IRS, it's a wonder we still have as much freedom as we do now. I hope this matter is not allowed to drop. Mabye CRK&T will become a thorn in some bueraucrat's arse
biggrin.gif
.
 
Don't you just love these guys? I'm sure they think they were doing the right thing. It scares the heck out of me.
 
This is interesting since we knife nuts have no problem loosening the pivots on our knives so they flick easier....many of us "modify" our own knives on a daily basis. If we're honest with outselves many of us will admit that we may adjust our knives to fit our purposes but then we're amazed that someone in the US Government was able to do the same thing and call us on the carpet for it.

Don't get me wrong, I would have argued the same way if I was CRKT and one could make a sound argument that those knives are not intended to be gravity knives but I find it a bit hypocritical when Steve Shackleford from Blade in his editorial stated that those knives were nothing more that liner locks and in issues of his magazine, writers are always talking about how fast a knife can open and how a knife can be flicked. We all know the R&D teams of all the knife manufacturers are trying to design a manual knife that will open faster, smoother like an auto and we feign surprise when someone in the custom office seizes the knives because they are in fact questionable in the eyes of a custom agent.

Like someone said in another thread, all liners can open with a flick of the wrist. Lets face it, the knife laws are stupid but they can be interpreted easily by an overzealous agent. The way to beat this is to pass laws that allowe these tools and potential weapons to be legal. I foresee that this will just get worse in the future.

Question to our LEO's: Be honest guys, if you found a dirtbag with one of these knives and wanted to, could you make an arguement to your supervisor on why you arrested them for possession of a gravity knife? Could you make it stick? I am not saying that you would do this, but could you? Could you see a fellow LEO do this?

CRKT was able to get out of this on pretty sound legal arguements but we all know a Carson M16 flipper can open as fast or faster than an auto. I know, I had one and it would after a bit of practice.

Not trying to flame, but lets discuss this. Sure these knives are not autos but in your heart of hearts are the knives that we love pushing the envolope nowadays.

Join the AKTI....like Luke Skywalker, they may be our only hope.

Respectfully,

------------------
~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska
Buck Collectors Club-Lifetime Member
JKM-Chai
KnifeKnutt@aol.com
 
Greg, here's the problem: if the screw loosened up in somebody's pocket, should they be declared a FELON!?

Right, didn't think so.

When planning out a law (or illegally modifying it if you're a cop) you have to consider the implications. Here were TWO implications: #1, "legislation by cop" is evil (and deliberately criminal) to start with and even ignoring that, #2 is that this standard could render ordinary citizens "accidental felons".

Horsecrap, on both counts. This balls-up was totally inexcusable by any standard imaginable.

Jim
 
This, "flick of the wrist," utterance is really confusing to me. It has been my understanding (assumption I guess) that an automatic knife opens by activation of a spring. Not a spring helped by muscular input by the operator, but by a spring. That is, lay it on the table, push the button and out pops the blade. The only action required by the operator is "pulling the trigger."

Flicking the wrist requires that the operator provides the knife opening energy. Opening energy is not independently provided by a spring. If the "auto" definition wanders over into the "flick of the wrist territory," then where would the line, or could the line be drawn between mechanical and auto? What about any one hand opening knife? Could that also be considered an auto. Then what about two hands? Or does the government go into "the speed" of opening which would, I suppose, require timing them. An adept operator would cause the knife to qualify as an auto and a klutz would be legal?

Logically I don't see how this thing can ever be sorted out unless it stops at the spring doing the opening vs the owner doing it with his own energy. A spring could assist the operator, but if the knife won't open by itself, it ought not to be considered an "auto." Help me out here. Oh, and just for the record, in a country of appropriately limited government, this issue would never be raised, and it's a tragedy that we even have to talk about it.
 
The switchblade acts also declare gravity knives illegal, hence the "outlawing" of flicking the wrist actions.
 
geobar, I woudl contact your Congressman again and let him know what you were told and that it sounds like a set up. Isn't this like planting evidence? No matter how you look at it at the very least the agent's actions were highly questionable. To me this equates to an ATF agent coming in to a gun store and meesing a a gun and saying that it is a class 3 firearm and the owner is violating the law because he isn't a class 3 dealer. Granted, it would take a little more than loosening a screw for that scenario, but not much.

------------------
Win if can, lose if you must, but always cheat.
 
geobar should get a Bladeforums medal!! I think we all need to contact our political representatives as geobar did. Most of them probably don't know the problems as we do; the problems we have as responsible knife users. Indeed, the laws SHOULD be changed. Exactly what is a dirk? You won't get any direction from most legal mumbo jumbo on dirks as the word seems to apply to many knives. And length limitation? Why? And why are double edged knives SOOOOOO much more deadlier than a single edged knife? Especially considering that most knife wounds/fatalities come from single edged kitchen knives.

I think what the law makers are trying to do is leave knives the way they were 25 years ago, requiring at least 2 hands to open and 5 minutes to do it in. Little, pretty, dinky little knives. Uh, sorry, times have changed. One handed liner locks that flick open are really good knives and we are very responsible with them. I don't buy the general argument that "it is impossible to stop X so we should let X be o.k. legally" as that is a pile of horse poop. But in this case, why are liner locks that are sble to be flicked open so terrible? I have yet to hear the arguments offerred by legislators.

I am Canadian and our laws are better and worse. We have no length limits or laws against double edged knives at all. Some knives are strictly forbidded: autos for civilians and push daggers and bali-songs to name a few. The rest of the law that I have read resembles the 150 year old California laws that warn against bowie fights and dirks, except our legislators apparently were scared by the ninja movies of the 1980's. There is a list of ninja weapons, correctly spelled and all, that we are not allowed to have! Sheesh!

I think that legislators here saw the flicky/flashy balisong as a gang weapon and too flashy for responsible people to use. I would love to carry one, but my government says that only gang members and ninjas need such WEAPONS.

So, what to do. Bugging the government would be a good start. But the bugging must be constructive. Letters talking about specific laws and specific knives would be helpful. Also, I think it would be neat to put together an argument ad absurdum: fund arguments that courts have used agaisnt liner locks or whatever other knives and apply them to kitchen knives, especially since they are north america's (probably the worls's) number one edged killers! And from there we need to argue that just as kitchen knives are tools, so are balis, daggers and autos. Flickable liner locks too.

In fact, many of the things that make certain knives good weapons make them very good tools. Black stealth coatings protec from rust and increase the lubricity of the blade. Increased lubricity definitely has practical advantages, as Wayne Goddard wrote in his new book that a polished blade versus a satin/blasted blade will swing-cut rope better. Double edges mean less time between sharpenings, easier penetration of you open sacks or bags a lot, and you can sharpen one edge to a high polish and the second edge to a toothy edge. One handed flicky knives are VERY handy when your other hand is tied up and your life hangs in the balance. I won't be using the thumb stud/hole on my folders if I need to cut myself from my seat belt!!! And so on.

One last point. I think that the market is going toards small fixed blades instead of folders anyways. So, Big Brother, we soon shall concede defeat if you won't negotiate. We will hand in our folders. BUT we will replace them with small, easily concealed fixed blades that are out FASTER than any pocket knife! And hey, no lock to fail either. Maybe Big Brither is doing us all a favor!

------------------
"Come What May..."
 
why arent these guys attacing the POS manufacturers?
i go to a flea market,pick it up,and flick it open with very little movement of the wrist.i can't do this with any of MY knives.i can get em open pretty fast with mr. thumbstud,but the only one ive been able to open "illegaly" are the knock offs.
go after them,not us.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Greg, here's the problem: if the screw loosened up in somebody's pocket, should they be declared a FELON!?</font>
Click to expand...

Jim, no they shouldn't and that is my point regarding how stupid the laws are. That is why as the market progress and the as the knives get more and more advance you are going to have more interpretations of the switchblade laws. Also your anger towards "legislation by cop" is correct...it is wrong but it happens all the time and the burden of proof will fall with the citizen not the police. The citizen is the one who will have to defend himself legally if arrested. It could literally cost thousands of dollars.

The only answer I can see is legislation that changes the switchblade law to not include any knife that does not have a spring. Until then, this will be a matter of interpretation and the anxiety, anger and ulcers will be with the defendent.
frown.gif
I am sure the custom officials that seized the shipment of knives from CRKT aren't losing as much sleep as CRKT is after they pay their legal team.

Greg
 
I think it speaks to a fundamental misreading
of Orwell that the term "Big Brother" is used
to describe nearly any legislation itself, or
the very act of legislation. AFAIK, that book
was about the inner machinations of the BBC
as much as totalitarian states or the Soviet
Union of the day.

T.

[This message has been edited by tw (edited 12-29-2000).]
 
Well lets see,hhmmmm,they had to modify it to make it open with a flick of the wrist.That one fact right there shows poor ethics.Gravity knives are opened my gravity,the blade releases just from its own weight,usually triggered by a switch or lever.How does flicking a blade open, which is generated by inertia constitute a gravity knife?I respect law-enforcement officials in all agencies,but these people are not fit to wear badges.Best Regards,Ralph

[This message has been edited by TOMBSTONE (edited 12-30-2000).]
 
Kodiak,

I will be sure to thank you if customs decides to seize liner locks again, uses your argument, and gets it to stick. Even though what you say may be true I would not add fuel to their fire against us.


Regards,

Tom Carey
 
Indeed Tom. The "dirtbag" in Joe anti-folder
LEO's sights could be any one of us some day;
I'd rather my knife simply be legitimate than
have to pray I pass some random roadside test
of character.

T.
 
Kodiak
Heres my LEO opinion. If you go by the letter of the law in Texas where I work then yes I think you could make the arrest and get it past your supervisor. I'm not sure if you'd last a minute in court on this fight and I wouldn't want to be the one to have a test case. I think the real intention of the law was for balisong type knives. I will be the first to say I think the auto knife laws are just plain silly. Most of the bad guys running around today are not carrying autos they carry their knives as tools. Most of the knives I run across when dealing with them are kitchen knives and small folders. I remember reading somewhere a few years back that in Texas more officers were stabbed with screwdrivers than knives.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Kodiak,
I will be sure to thank you if customs decides to seize liner locks again, uses your argument, and gets it to stick. Even though what you say may be true I would not add fuel to their fire against us.</font>
Click to expand...

Wow...if what Tom says is true, that a retired Military Officer can bring up a point that is as obvious as the knife in our pockets than we're really in more trouble than I thought. The tone of the discussion is that the law is written so poorly that without a change in that law things are only going to get worse.

Happy New Year!

------------------
~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska
Buck Collectors Club-Lifetime Member
JKM-Chai
KnifeKnutt@aol.com
 
Since someone mentioned Balisong's,that triggered another pet peeve of mine in false interpitations in the law.In some States they make the judgement that Balisongs are illegal and fall under the gravity knife law.This is another very sad situation.Sure, if after you flick the lock holding the handles togther, the blade from gravity can unfold,but not completly.It cannot be considered useable until at least a couple of further intentional manipulations are completed to finish opening the blade and then locking the handles together.A gravity knife would allow the blade to fall open and lock into place all by itself(gravity) into a functional weapon with no help needed from the user.Obviously, a balisong is a only able to be functional after some deliberate manipulating actions from the user, utilizing inertia(wrist flicking), rather than gravity.Therefore;any Law-Enforcement agent,Attorney,or Judge with the ability to rationalize and interpet the law even somewhat reasonably should be able to figure out that liner locks and balisongs do not fall under gravity knife laws.Adjusting the pivot pin to the point the blade is so loose that it falls and locks open by gravity is not reasonable or ethical.Unfortunatly;alot of these people do not like knives,citizens,armed citizens,etc.and abuse their interpetation authority.They are basically making laws up as they see fit while trampling on your rights.Few challenge them and the ones that do are put in a situation to sign their rights away so they can't sue the offenders.Over the last couple of decades it is begining to look alot less like The United States of America"The Land Of The Free" Very sad really.I served my country during Desert Storm and I wish our public servants,Political leaders took their Oath as seriously as I took mine."To Uphold the Constitution of The United States" "Defend her from Enemies Foriegn and "DOMESTIC"If you haven't joined the NRA and AKTI yet,Please do!Have a Happy New Year!
Best Regards,Ralph


[This message has been edited by TOMBSTONE (edited 12-30-2000).]
 
In Texas we are fortunate. State law here allows knife blades to 5 1/2". The longest I know of in the US. With a few exceptions for specific knives like autos etc. we are pretty much free to carry. Even in the restrictive city I live in, their ordinance echos the state law. And the wearing of knives, especially folders in TX on belts is common. I have never seen a LEO in TX even ask about a knife worn on a belt.

Go to a gun/knife show here and one of the most common sights is the clip of a folder attached to jean pockets - even lots of women carry them.

Oddly enough, the carrying of "Bowie" type knives is illegal except when hunting or fishing - or enroute to or from those activities.
 
Tombstone
The problem in texas is they modified the law in a way that I think covers balisongs or liner locks that open with a flick of the wrist. I copied the statute. Tell me what you think.


(11) "Switchblade knife" means any knife that has a blade that folds, closes, or retracts into the handle or sheath, and that:


(A) opens automatically by pressure applied to a button or other device located on the handle; or


(B) opens or releases a blade from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal force.




 
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