Levergunners, Succor Me!

Dave Rishar

Dave Rishar

Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Messages
3,178
Isn't "succor" a cool word? I don't think that I've ever used it once in my whole life before now. I do need some help though. Allow me to explain.

I've been spending some quality time with my Winchester '94 during the last month or so and I'm coming to appreciate the very thing that I spent so many years deriding, the humble lever action. I won't go into the pros and cons here -- you guys already know all that. However, this particular '94 is underpowered for most of my needs. A new levergun purchase is being planned.

What am I going to do with it? Obligatory range work. It needs to strike decisively out to 200 yards. (And it ought to ring the plates nicely when it gets there.) It needs to take deer out to that range and it would be nice if it would handle elk out there as well. It should be able to deal with a surprised black bear inside of 50 yards or so. It needs to shoot up to my standards: no matches or anything like that, but if I'm holding for something I expect to hit it...let's call it 3 MoA with load development. Better is better, obviously.

My situation:
- I do reload and I consider my setup to be fairly good. I do not currently cast my own bullets but that's in the works.
- The local hunting scene is usually close ranged -- say, out to 200 yards. I don't like to take offhand shots past that and they rarely present themselves anyway.
- I demand portability. Consider the Winchester '94 Trapper as the goal. I'm willing to go a pound or two heavier and a few inches longer but I'm not interested in something the size of a 91/30. The whole point of a lever action in the first place is portability, and if I wanted to rampage through the woods with a big rifle, I'd rampage through the woods with a big rifle.
- I "cycle with authority." I don't want the lever bending if I'm excited. I don't want the brass to hit me in the face. (Anywhere else is fine, including landing in the crook of my elbow.) I don't want cartridges hanging up even occasionally as I tend to crush them while returning to battery.
- I'm not particularly recoil sensitive.
- Porting and muzzlebrakes make me angry. They make cleaning more difficult, they hurt my ears, they hurt everyone else's ears, and they offer yet another way for rain and mud to get into the bore. I don't want them.
- No one (besides Randy Cunningham) ever got rich by working for the government and I'm no exception. Price is important. I'm willing to save if it's worth it but a favorable bang vs. buck ratio is desired.
- I hate crappy sights. An express rear and bead front is fine, if the bead is small and visible. It will probably receive a low (2-4x) powered fixed scope as my shooting eye is bad and not getting any better.
- I get a kick out of big, slow bullets. (And they get to kick me.) As they say with the 45-70, "Don't worry about expansion. It's already expanded."

I'm looking primarily at Marlin's offerings. I have an unhealthy fascination with the 50-70 but that doesn't seem to be available. As for the others:

45-70: looks good all around. I haven't shot any of the heavier loadings but the recoil of the factory offerings don't bother me in the least.
444 Marlin: I already load quite a bit of .44 Mag and I have a lot of bullets in this caliber laying around at any given time. I would like the ability to go heavier than 300 grains, however, and that doesn't seem possible currently.
35 Remington: not my first or even second choice, but people I respect swear by them. The paper ballistics don't look bad.

I'm aware of the Ballard vs. Microgroove debate and possible solutions so this need not be mentioned.

What do you recommend in terms of model and caliber? (Hell, feel free to offer a pet load if it's a good one.) And why?
 
My choice is a 95 Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 with a Williams Foolproof aperture sight. It violates your rule against ported muzzles, but I've dragged it through all sorts of mud and rain with no ill effects, and at the range the blast is no worse than a .44 magnum revolver.

It's a short, lightweight and extremely fast-handling rifle. I load it with a 332 grain RCBS hard cast over 30 grains of SR-4759 and a CCI magnum primer.
 
There is a breakthrough in bullet technology and all lever action rifles can now be loaded safely with boatail bullets. That's right; a plastic foamy tip I'm guessing, hard enough but not too hard. Won't detonate the round in front of it in the tube. Hornady makes them and they're loaded with proprietary powder stuffing technology too. Same SAMMI specs, a true gain in power and velocity.

I recall the advantage in this ammunition was particularly for the 30/30: the larger bores were not improved as much. Better sectional density and BC numbers for the smaller diameter 30 cartridge.

I've a 38/55, a 45 Colt, and a 45/70 Lever, Raghorn. There's still a couple 35's out there that are interesting.

munk
 
I love 35s. I searched for a .358 Win for a year before finally giving up hope and buying the .45-70.
 
Sounds like you want the marlin. You could get the standard '95 and get it shortened to avoid the porting problem.

I would like to mention the Win 94 in .375 win or .307 winchester.

It is a shame the 1886 is out of your (and mine!) price range.

Tom
 
Dave,
You didn't say what year your '94 was made. Id it's an AE there isn't a problem with putting a 'scope on it. Munk was also right the line of ammo is called LEVEREVOLUTION. It makes a 30WCF a real 200yard deer shooter. As for Black Bear the 30WCF is just fine out to 140 yards or so. Elk will go down at about the same distance, but don't take any raking shots and use the Federal loads with Nosler partitions.

Now if you just want another rifle, ok, but I'd hold on to that '94 if I were you.
If you want an exposed hammer leveraction, you might want to look at the Browning BLR. It can be had in .358WCF and .450Marlin and even in .300WinMag.
Dan
 
Wow , I love this place . I,ll have to check that boat-tail ammo out . Are they worth the innovation ? Would they be available for the Lee hand loader ? Would using them in such a basic loader negate the advantage they give ?

Dave you have so many choices offered and more practiced shooters than I to take advice from . I did receive one piece of advice that has stood me in good stead . That is Cylinder magazine alignment with barell . One Cantina member told me about the possibility that right out of the factory the cylinder might not be well aligned and that loosening the screw near the front of the barell on the cylinder, sighting along it to align the two then tightening the screw . Someone else might be able to state this a little better so feel free to chime in . It helped out an acuracy issue I was having and made my Marlin,s groups tighten up considerably .

/One thing I would like to add is the question of shortening the length of the barell . Does not the rate of twist corespond to the length of barell ? Again this is a question better left to the people who posed the solution .
A 30-30 is capable of taking any North-american animal . That having been said there are cartridges better suited to bigger game . I hope someone gives a direct point of view regarding taking bigger game such as Elk . It might be the new pointed bullets give so much better performance that it may prove more than adequate .
 
There seems to be confusion as to the term "boat tail" here.
A "boat tail" is a taper at the base of the bullet.
A "spitzer" is a pointed tip at the front of the bullet.
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Spitzer
spitz-6.jpg

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Boat Tail
Boat%20tail%20rifle%20bullet.jpg

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A%20.7%20description.jpg

A%201.6&2%20description.jpg

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Perhaps some of the confusion is because a boat tail wouldn't be as much benefit without a spitzer tip.
 
Where would we be without pedantics ? Trying to think something else up I guess ! L:O:L

Yep I,m not too much up on terminology and I only mentioned boat tails as the new pointed rounds seem to come with them . While Dave is certainly up on terminology it wouldn,t do for some less informed members to come away with the wrong Idea . I would certainly like to try a box of them as I toyed with the idea of getting pointed bullets hand loaded for my 30-30 and loading them one at a time . Safety concerns stopped me as you never know what could happen if I was less than perfect in ammunition control . There is always the chance A buddy could grab a round or two by accident .
I was also told that the benefits of a pointed round in a 30-30 wouldn,t be that noticeable . I would love for them to be proved wrong .
 
You won't be able to load the new bullets the way Hornady does, and I'm not even sure if they've released them as seperate components. If they do, Kevin, there is no reason your Lee loader would not work. You won't get the same velocities as the manufacturer.

I got a 38/55 Marlin because I could not find a 375 any thing. If a Savage 358 showed up at a reasonable price I'd leap across this screen to get one.
Browning re-issued them briefly about a year and a half ago and they were gone before I could look up the grotesque price. Spendy.

The difference between the aerodynamics and terminal impact energy of a boatail vs a spitzer at the yardage we are discussing is not worth the time it took to compose this sentence. But bullets with better math, that's what I call it in my simple brain, are pointed and long for calibre, and tube fed magazines up to this point could not use them. The large diameter of the 45/70- think of big chunkie coming your way, means even with a point it will not gain as much improvement as does the 30 calibre.


munk
 
My personal lever gun is a 30-30

.444 is handicapped bythe limited availability of bullets built to perform correctly at the higher velocities, is what I was told when I was looking at getting a larger bore version.

I had decided to get either a 45/70 or a .450 marlin when we found out that our daughter was inbound. Therefore I got something cheaper to shoot.

Whatever you do, I'm happy for you, a new weapon is a good thing. I would mount a scope on it though, a scout mount, but anyone that knows me, would know that is what I'd suggest.
 
"Bullets with better math " I like that . Yeah I think most people would be better off practicing form at the range than loading at home . I respect that some hand loaders are doing it for the right reasons . I just think a steady hand and eye are more important than a thousandth of a grain here or there .

I am at the rudimentary stage where a minimum of "sighting in" bench shooting with a lot of off hand shooting gives me the most accurate bang for the buck .

On a separate note ? 45-70 what isa scout mount and what are the advantages .I have the standard Tasco that came with my Marlin . Soory Dave I hope we don,t off trackyour thread .
 
The .450 Marlin sounds like its made for you.

Since you reload, you could also go the 45-70 route with an appropriate modern lever gun. Most of them are not made to handle higher pressure rounds, so most .45-70 ammo is loaded down.
 
Whatever you do, I'm happy for you, a new weapon is a good thing. I would mount a scope on it though, a scout mount, but anyone that knows me, would know that is what I'd suggest. ..>> 45/70

A low power scope on a lever, either standard or 'scout' style, is a good thing. Some people think it's sacreligious, but they may have 20/20 vision and can use the issued iron sights. A lot of people mount a Peep sight. I have one on the 45/70. I don't like the peep for target- it's awful- but for a fast shot it is a great sight. A red dot system would not be out of place on a lever.


munk
 
Kevin the grey said:
On a separate note ? 45-70 what is a scout mount and what are the advantages.
Click to expand...

Kevin I tried to send this as a PM, but you have yours turned off.


If you imagine throwing a typical scoped rifle to your shoulder, you will find the scope's exit lens close to your eye as you rest your check on the stock, while leaning your head forward over the stock. This puts your face in a great location for one eye to peer through a steel tube offering a magnified view of the world and the reticle. The magnification is to improve shot placement and to make it easier to identify a target (at least in my opinion).

A scout mount places a low, or no, magnification device further from your eyes, allowing you to maintain your normal periphereal vision, and a more heads up general position, and with practice places a small reticle in your field of view for you to place a shot with. If you look at most of the news coming out of the WoT, you will see lots of soldiers with aimpoints or other sighting systems on their rifles. it's the same basic concept. Fellow named Jeff Cooper canonized it as part of his "scout rifle". In a lot of ways the current M-4 is a great modern interpretation of the scout rifle in a modern military sense. I think it's (the scout scope and mount) the best thing for most guns, while not intended for a longer range precision weapon it will do a lot to help under 300 yards for coarser shooting.

Of course all my opinion, as are all the interesting ways I come up to spell things.

aka 45/70
I was gonna post a copy of a pic of my rifle, but i can't seem to find it. Must take a group shot one day :)
 
Thread drift on.

My .45-70 is a single shot Springfield. When I used to shoot it, I loaded light. With that long barrel it was a pleasure to shoot. Just a strong push of that steel buttplate against the shoulder. Shooting at 200 yards, it would go

BOOM...........thunk, as it hit the target. Fun stuff.

Thread drift off.

I can't imagine shooting hot loads in a light rifle. But I'm a little old fart.:rolleyes:

Steve
 
Marlin levers of all types :thumbup:

and you won't lose your brass, like shooting an SKS or, in your case, an SVT :eek: .

was going to say, be careful of wear on the muzzle crown (as you'd be cleaning from the muzzle usually) but then I remembered who I was writing to...and I am sure you have a carbon fiber cleaning rod *anyways*



Mike
 
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