Liability

C

cjensema

Joined
Dec 29, 1998
Messages
288
1. How much of an issue for knifemakers is liability?

2. Does a knifemaker ever get sued by someone who claims to have bought a defective blade and was injured?

3. Does anyone think it is advisable to incorporate to avoid the possible personal consequences of a lawsuit?

Thanks for your opinion.
Carl
 
In 15 years of making and selling knives, I have had one incident along these lines. An individual had me sharpen a knife, when he arrived to pick it up I told him (in these words) "Don't cut yourself, it's sharp!" He proceeded to thumb the edge, and then to my astonishment, placed the blade on his palm, and drew is across! Needless to say, he inflicted a very nasty cut. He said it was nothing, and quickly left the shop. Two days later I received a call from his lawyer telling me that I would either pay for his trip to the ER and the 9 stitches, or I would be sued for the costs. I contacted a customer (who happened to be a lawyer) and consulted him on the issue. His first question was....."Did you say anything to the effect that he be careful, or that the blade was very sharp?" I repeated what I had told the person, and within 30 min. he called me back to tell me not to worry, he had contacted the other lawyer, and told me there was absolutely no case. He also advised me that in the future all I need do is advise anyone of the fact that the blade is sharp, and that I would not be responsible if he/she were injured. I now simply state that the blade(s) are extremly sharp, and that I am not responsible if they loose any body parts. I suspect that this would suffice, but there is always the chance that you will run into a "gold digger." As for liability insurance, I have checked into it, and it is simply too costly for me to even think about.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
Carl,
I'm sure those are questions a lot of us have. If none of us have been sued yet, it's bound to be coming due to the success some idiots have had in the courts with their "hot coffee" type complaints. My fear has been that some fool (and I've done foolish things many times!) might pick up one of my knives at a knife or craft show and turn around to show it to someone and Bingo! - stick it right into someone else. I've asked around amoung my friends who are better educated than I about corporate affairs and it didn't seem that incorporation would do me a whole lot of good unless I put everything I own except my business in my wife's name. Anybody have any experience in this area? I'll bet a good week's pay there are more than just Carl and I wondering?
Ron
 
whoa nellie...america is just getting started on this one....everyone wants to be a millionaire...i always tell everyone they can sue me but they wont get anything, and it will make them a sewer. but really, a KNIFEMAKER sued burr king and they stopped making the 960 because of it (i think it is a very big company and they could care less about one product-but they have started making them again) ask john at trugrit. he sold it to the guy and had to fly to the east coast a few time cause he was named in the suit.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
liabilty is why i'm waiting until' i can start a business before i sell knives to people outside the family.
 
If you incorporate, you'll only be liable to the extent of your business assets... nobody could touch your personal assets. It doesn't cost much to file as an "S" corporation or a LLC, certainly cheaper than insurance, and it wouldn't only protect you from product liability, but from bankruptcy as well.

If I were a knifemaker by trade, or any other sole proprietor, I'd incorporate.

Ryan


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Ed...

Good advice!!!

Just thought of something funny for you knife makers to do..

Include a bandaid or two with every knife you sell!

Would for sure invoke a laught or two,,and get your point across at the same time!!!
smile.gif


It's a gimick,but funny!

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Thats something I worry about just loaning knives to people. I'm a minor so there isn't much chance of a lawsuit against me, but its amazing how stupid people are.And how eager they are for a chance in court. I was at a horse show and things were running slow so I was just walking around talking to some friends when some guy comes out of nowhere asking for a knife. He must have thought I was deaf because he made chopping motion on his palm everytime he said knife. Anyway I almost gave him my gerber pliars which weren't real sharp at the time but handed him my delica which I had sharpened the night before.He wanted to cut a strap off of a saddle blanket that was on a horse. Rather than place the edge of the knife against the strap and slice it off, or be even smarter and take the saddle and blanket of the horse so you ca see what your doing, he took a full blown chop at it and damn near opened the side of the horse wide open as the knife slid right through the strap, then almost stuck it in his leg at the end of the swing. Then he held the knife out in front of him, looked at me for a second and said "that things sharp!" Well it is a knife and all I kind of thought it was supposed to be, I may be wrong.
Maybe you should require customers to pass an IQ test before you give them their knives
smile.gif
or include a set of those steel mesh gloves with the knife
wink.gif
I would do everything possible to lower my liability risk. The courts are letting to much BS go through anymore and theres an new idiot born every day.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
it scares me too! the courts are run by fools, who let someone who burns herself with coffee win a million dollars. i never lend out knives. last time i let a friend use a knife he cut himself. i took the knife away, and told him if he wasn't gonna use it the right way he'd never see it again. you gotta be stern when it comes down the that kinda stuff.

[This message has been edited by magnum .44 (edited 01-28-2000).]
 
I made quite a few tantos a few years back and I always warned customers that they were "wicked sharp". After one guy shaved half his arm smooth, he decided to try the thumbnail test, you know here one sees if he can get a little shaving off the top of his thumbnail. Well, he took off about half his thumbnail and part of the tip of his thumb and I had to take him to the ER because he was bleeding so badly. This guy had the gall to want me to pay his medical bill!! I just answered with a bill for cleaning the blood out of my car. Never heard anything from him again, but I hated to lose a good customer, he usually bought a knife every other month.

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Jake Evans,War Chief of the Terrible Ironic HORDE, Wielder of the Mighty Blade SOUL STEALER
 
it's sad to loose a good customer. but the guy was being unreasonable, i think you did the right thing by asking him to pay the car bill when he asked you to pay the hospital bill.
 
I just found the box to a spyderco folder I bought about a year ago, and it had a waiver inside explaining that spyderco was in no way liable or responsible for anything that happened . I don't think that would cover them if it was defective and caused an injury but it should be enough for those morons who draw the blade across their palm and things like that. That seems like it would be pretty easy to type up one of your own and make sure each customer gets one when they pick up/receive the knife.You may want to talk to a lawyer or someone a little more knowledgeable about all the legal stuff to make sure it covers everything though. For those of you who take orders, that coulsd be a part of the roder form. Make them sign that they understand you are not responsible if they injure themselves with one of your knives.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
Incorporating will help insulate you from liability, but there are ways around that for the determined plaintiff and the creative lawyer. A well worded warning or exculpatory notice [what is sometimes referred to as a "waiver", erroneously] will also help, but there are limitations to how much that will insulate you from liability. The law of product liability is different according to which jurisdiction you're in, but there should be a distinction between a defective product which does not perform as designed and injures someone as a consequence, a dangerous product, which performs as designed but has inadequate safeguards against injury, and cases where the operator injured himself because he misused the product or exercised insuffuicient care. You have to try to fit within the rule best summarised by the maxim, "volenti non fit injuria": voluntary assumption of risk, but even this may not provide protection against the remote user: ie, the recipient of a present or a resale or the guy who says, "Hey, nice custom folder! The maker said the lock was as good as any production knife?Did you see that Cold Steel video? I guess I must be able to backslash and break this brick with this folder... Hey Bud, would you help me find my fingers?"
The best you can do is take reasonable care to ensure the product isn't defective, which I'm sure everyone here does anyway, give each customer a little written waiver/notice, [which, ideally, they should sign], covering all types of potential problems: "knives are sharp and dangerous and require special care so use at your own risk and try not to be a moron and you agree that I'm not liable for any reason including my gross negligence, even though I never should have let an idiot like you within a mile of my knives", but in much more detailed and proper legalese, incorporate if you can afford it, get insurance, if possible, and befriend a lawyer who works cheap, if you can stand it.
In other words, you can't really protect yourself completely, the cost of trying to do so is ridiculous, but doing some simple things might help.
 
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