Like watches but don't want to spend too much knife money on one?

[AustinOX]

I've responded to a few watch advice threads on here and I realize that on a knife forum watches are going to be secondary to most members. Truth be told, most are overpriced jewelry, and I'm as guilty as a woman at Zales when it comes to spending money on something mostly frivolous and shiny.

These days I'm not into plastic watches, giant watches, or fashion watches, and a sapphire crystal is a minimum requirement. While trying to fill a desire for a relatively inexpensive quartz chronograph with sapphire, I stumbled across the Boccia 728-01 for $139 shipped on the Bay. Titanium case, sapphire crystal with anti reflective coating, 100m water resistance, and Japanese (Citizen/Miyota) analog/digital movement. It is no doubt made in China, but you'd spend $750+ for something comparable that says "Swiss Made"- no doubt assembled with many Chinese components imported to Switzerland. Boccia is a subsidiary of highly respected though obscure German brand Tutima. This particular watch is the civilian version of the Bund watch issued to the German expeditionary forces in Afghanistan. It shares the exact same case and has a very similar movement. The dial and hands are different, but in my opinion it's a better looking watch. Tutima has a long history of manufacturing high quality and high priced military style/issue automatic timepieces. I'm guessing that Boccia was formed to keep the Tutima brand name off of lower priced quartz watches.

I'm very impressed with the quality of this watch at this price point, and I've owned watches costing more than twenty times as much. Thought I'd share for my fellow knife enthusiasts who'd like to have a truly well-made watch without spending a fortune. The only downsides are weak luminous paint on the hands and markers and no backlighting on the LCD screens. The analog time remains visible thanks to contrast in everything but the lowest light. If you've never owned anything with a negative LCD display they are difficult to read unless you've got some decent light. Other than that its lightweight, comfortable, versatile, and looks fantastic. Not sure how many the seller has left (there is only one seller on the Bay, I have NO affiliation). Beware that there is a "Bund" watch out there that is similar, possibly made by someone buying an overstock of cases. It only has 30m of water resistance, indicating to me that the gaskets are probably inferior. I'd avoid that one- in watch speak 30 meters means you should be careful about how much water you splash on it when you wash your hands... Anyway, here's mine:
http://pbckt.com/pf.OwIMvS

 

[amflud]

Looks interesting. It seems to be low profile.

I have the second watch you have in your photo album. I've had it for about 4 years and the tritium tubes have dimmed considerably, but I can still tell the time in the dark and that is very important to me. So, no backlight is a no go.

Thank you for posting this. Even though there is no illumination I am still intrigued.

 

[AustinOX]

I'm a Marathon fan, without a doubt, but their pricing is is creeping beyond the value for money status they once enjoyed. I sold that TSAR because I needed a day-date display and wanted an automatic to wear at work (the third and fifth watches are my usual off work choices). The JDD pricing is absurd for a plain Jane Sellita movement, and like an idiot I disregarded my need and bought a GSAR. That one is now on the chopping block too.

As for the Boccia it really looks like they sacrificed performance for design using a pure white lume rather than the green tinted Superluminova C3. If I keep the watch long term I may send it off for a re-lume one day when I've forgotten that it costs as much as the watch did. I didn't plan on it being my GSAR replacement, but there seems to be enough ambient light in my work car that the time is legible, and when I need the day & date I usually have more lights on. I only bought it because I no longer had a quartz watch that I liked for shooting, running a chainsaw, etc. It may get more wrist time than I thought!

 

[Luis G.]

It is no doubt made in China, but you'd spend $750+ for something comparable that says "Swiss Made"- no doubt assembled with many Chinese components imported to Switzerland. Boccia is a subsidiary of highly respected though obscure German brand Tutima.

I find the whole Swiss-made overpriced myth to be false. In fact I find many Chinese watches to be overpriced. For example: Beijing Zungu 6: Price is about $200~ on the bay, quite a bit more in actual China from my understanding.
Movement is poorly finished, and mechanism is badly assembled. It took me over 3 hours to refinish the edges (which burr remained), and to calibrate the watch to decent timekeeping.
Overall a watch fit for a price poin of about $125 not $200 or more.

In comparison, a Tissot Carson Automatic cost me $300. About $80 more than the Zungu 6. Swiss made ETA 2824-2, keeping great time (atm it sits at about +3 s/d), sapphire crystal, and superb fit and finish on the outsite, and good finishing on the inside. The mechanical movement is accurate, and very well assembled.

There are other examples of swiss-made watches for under $300.

Another highly important and highly ignored point of Swiss vs Chinese or Japanese movements is I can have Swiss made movements serviced anywhere in the world where there is a watchmaker. ETA maintains stock parts, technical know how's, service networks, and distributors worldwide. Sellita uses many movements from ETA so parts are interchangeable.
Only way to get most 99% of Chinese or Japanese movements repaired is from donor watches or movement replacements, unless of course it's an ETA copy and then most parts are interchangeable, some parts are not. That is provided the movement doesn't come damaged from assembly.


I've had PLENTY of under $300 swiss made automatics with Sapphire crystal, swiss automatic movements, and great case construction.

Actually not always assembled with Chinese components, if you have any questions send a message to the watch company most of them are very transparent and usually will tell you which components are Chinese. If it is coming from Swatch Group, then the factory is likely owned by them. I've had at length discussions with some Swatch group reps, as well as one ex Omega watchmaker. So far from what I understand in watch movements: ETA is second to none in terms of watch movement productions.
They have some of the more robust, and accurate movements available, and have offered in the past finishing for high end brands (by high end they mean high end $10,000+).
Not that it matters but I've had the privalege of studying several high end vintage pieces under a watchamaker at a local high end jeweler and some not vintage from one Grand Seiko's to Patek, to AP, to Vacheron Constatin, to JLC.

Either way, after owning my fair share of watches I've come to the conclusion: Sapphire crystal only. Swiss made or Domestic Japan Made only. Japan Made will have to be in person (but good luck finding JDM in person, if you do you spend a considerable premium). I may make some exceptions in the future for Seagull-made and Seagull branded watches simply because I was very very impressed with their F&F and quality control on their newer models, very comparable to ETA.

Orient's lower end (under $400) are simply not worth it for the most part unless you are buying the look not the watch. Orient's higher end stuff is overpriced (Royal line up).
I recently sent back a Retrograde Orient Star, crap watch for the $725 a buddy paid. I got my buddy a vintage Rolex instead from a trusted watchmaker. (I know I know Rolex, but it was his money and he refused to get an Omega or FC...)

 

[AustinOX]

When I say overpriced I'm not referring to the great deal you got on a Tissot on eBay or gray market, I'm referring to ADs selling Swiss Made watches at or near retail prices. Profit margins are incredible, and you're typically paying for advertising, store rent, and sales commissions.

I'm also not trying to say that Chinese watches are generally just as good as Swiss, even if Chinese components are being used in low to mid level Swiss and German watches (although what I've read about the prevalence of this practice and manufacturers willingness to reveal parts sources is exactly the opposite of what you're saying). What I'm saying is that my wife wears a Sea Gull branded watch, and I'm typing this on an iPhone, so I know you can get a quality product out of China- including the above Boccia watch.

Perhaps a better way to make my point is a photo of what's inside a $1200 retail ($968 gray market on Amazon) Victorinox XLS analog/digital Swiss made watch with sapphire and 100m water resistance, 20 sec/month accuracy. It's steel, rather than titanium, but otherwise offers a pretty similar set of features to the $139 Boccia:

And thanks to the magic of Google, the Boccia:

 

[whetrock]

I've got a similar sentiment towards timepieces, I really enjoy watches, but don't want to delve to much into my knife/gun/preps funds to obtain them. I like the affordable, reliable models, that are utilitarian. I've got a less expensive (seiko 5) automatic, and don't know why people spend big bucks on something that'll never be as accurate as a quartz, and needs to be serviced, in nearly the same intervals as the batteries need to be changed in a quartz. With that being said I'm going to get a Vostok Amphibia and try and call it quits with the automatics for a while. I still like them for aesthetics alone, but that's not enough to make me get fanatical about them. I like ana-digi watches like yours, and am sporting a Casio Tough Solar at the moment, the Bond Style NATO strap is a cool touch on that watch. I like that watch of yours a great deal.

Here's my an-digi Casio. (ana-digi's are like the best of both worlds) this one's a Wally World watch.

 

[Luis G.]

When I say overpriced I'm not referring to the great deal you got on a Tissot on eBay or gray market, I'm referring to ADs selling Swiss Made watches at or near retail prices. Profit margins are incredible, and you're typically paying for advertising, store rent, and sales commissions.

I'm also not trying to say that Chinese watches are generally just as good as Swiss, even if Chinese components are being used in low to mid level Swiss and German watches (although what I've read about the prevalence of this practice and manufacturers willingness to reveal parts sources is exactly the opposite of what you're saying). What I'm saying is that my wife wears a Sea Gull branded watch, and I'm typing this on an iPhone, so I know you can get a quality product out of China- including the above Boccia watch.

Perhaps a better way to make my point is a photo of what's inside a $1200 retail ($968 gray market on Amazon) Victorinox XLS analog/digital Swiss made watch with sapphire and 100m water resistance. It's steel, rather than titanium, but otherwise offers a pretty similar set of features to the $139 Boccia:

As I said if you want to go for a particular design sure you can find cheaper watches. If you want the same quality, I can assure you the prices are close to the same.

That Seagull cost more than that Boccia. So did that Iphone.

 

[AustinOX]

Ironically the Sea Gull (M182SK) was exactly the same price as the Boccia. Is it a POS now because it wasn't as expensive as you thought? Surely your Tissot isn't a POS because one would expect a well made Swiss auto with sapphire to cost more. I'm not sure how good deals can be had on Swiss watches but not a watch built in China by a German company- or is it because you got ripped off on a Chinese watch?

This thread has gone way off topic. I'm a watch enthusiast and I've owned a lot of nice watches that say "Swiss Made" and "Made in Germany". I'm vouching for this one and recommending it as a good deal on a well made watch with desirable components, designed in a military style that will appeal to knife and gun guys who don't want to spend a ton of money on a cool, quality watch or fuss with an automatic. There have been several recent watch recommendation request threads on here and I thought I'd share my experience for the benefit of others. If you want to voice an opinion of its quality please feel free to start your own thread about how a watch you've never seen in person isn't as good as other watches or a good value. Better yet, buy one to prove me wrong and swallow your pride when you realize my review is spot on. You'll at least have a great watch as a consolation prize.

Look for my next thread on the excellent titanium High Gear Altis ABC watch for $100

 

[Luis G.]

Ironically the Sea Gull (M182SK) was exactly the same price as the Boccia. Is it a POS now because it wasn't as expensive as you thought? Surely your Tissot isn't a POS because one would expect a well made Swiss auto with sapphire to cost more. I'm not sure how good deals can be had on Swiss watches but not a watch built in China by a German company- or is it because you got ripped off on a Chinese watch?

This thread has gone way off topic. I'm a watch enthusiast and I've owned a lot of nice watches that say "Swiss Made" and "Made in Germany". I'm vouching for this one and recommending it as a good deal on a well made watch with desirable components, designed in a military style that will appeal to knife and gun guys who don't want to spend a ton of money on a cool, quality watch or fuss with an automatic. There have been several recent watch recommendation request threads on here and I thought I'd share my experience for the benefit of others. If you want to voice an opinion of its quality please feel free to start your own thread about how a watch you've never seen in person isn't as good as other watches or a good value. Better yet, buy one to prove me wrong and swallow your pride when you realize my review is spot on. You'll at least have a great watch as a consolation prize.

Look for my next thread on the excellent titanium High Gear Altis ABC watch for $100

I collected watches and studied movements, and for a bit under a watchmaker (not terribly long). I've studied about 20+ of chinese movements, and owned far more than that.
Price is definitely not the issue, I've seen some wonderful Chinese made watches for well under $200 (Invicta 8926 with the Seiko NH35, both produced in China for example). The Parnis sub homages are also pretty darn decent, albeit the QC can be flaky at times.

Let me step back a little, I am beginning to sound like a Swiss snob, lol. There are plenty of Swiss made as well as Japanese made and Chinese made brands which quite frankly rip the consumer off just because of the makers name (Raymond Weil, albeit they are repenting slowly but surely).

I am not calling the Boccia a bad watch, apologies if that's how it came out. For $139 getting sapphire crystal/titanium is a heck of a price to be honest. What I am saying however is many people get caught up in comparing Swiss made with their watches without realizing the real differences in the watches let alone the origin of make.

My sapphire crystal only, swiss made only came from bad experiences with watches ranging from $50-$600~. So far swiss-made have come out on top both in servicing (warranty or locally) and in function (less flaws, but not flawless). Not saying I haven't had pleasant experiences with Chinese watches, I have particularly with Seagull's newer models after their factory was built some time ago, they have really really stepped it up a notch I was very surprised. However their prices have also skyrocketed to the point where they almost compete with Swiss-made and JDM watches.
But notice how much their price had to increase to actually get to Swiss-made quality more consistently than before. Martin at another forum has a lot of pictures under high magnification you can take a look there. Usually very telling of the quality (PS: Miyota is spectacular finishing for such inexpensive movements).

 

[AustinOX]

I've got a similar sentiment towards timepieces, I really enjoy watches, but don't want to delve to much into my knife/gun/preps funds to obtain them. I like the affordable, reliable models, that are utilitarian. I've got a less expensive (seiko 5) automatic, and don't know why people spend big bucks on something that'll never be as accurate as a quartz, and needs to be serviced, in nearly the same intervals as the batteries need to be changed in a quartz. With that being said I'm going to get a Vostok Amphibia and try and call it quits with the automatics for a while. I still like them for aesthetics alone, but that's not enough to make me get fanatical about them. I like ana-digi watches like yours, and am sporting a Casio Tough Solar at the moment, the Bond Style NATO strap is a cool touch on that watch. I like that watch of yours a great deal.

Here's my an-digi Casio. (ana-digi's are like the best of both worlds) this one's a Wally World watch.

Thanks, whetrock, I'm pretty happy with it. As for the strap, its a Maratac. Well made and comfortable after a break-in period, but the gray stripes are very light when you first get it, and any dirt or grime shows. I darkened this one with some black shoe polish to try to even it out a bit. I Just ordered another one for a different watch from Amazon seller Clockwork Synergy. It has rounded rings, much darker gray stripes, and the quality seems to be as good as Maratac straps I've owned.

 

[cchu518]

About $300 for a watch with an ETA 2824 in it is fair I think. I went through a long fascination with watches, until one day I saw this banker that I have to deal with rocking a A Lange & Sohne, it was 55,000 retail. Blew my world, the guy was in institutional sales and I don't even think he could pronounce A Lange & Sohne let alone know what he was wearing. But anyhow, kind of blew my mind and I started getting rid of my watches which weren't cheap except for one Hamilton Chrono. It was 2008, people were losing houses and this guy was profiting on privatizing companies that he helped take public. It made me really feel dirty about working in finance.

With the Rolexes and Omegas gone I am really happy that my wife bought me a Seiko SKX007 for my bday. I actually like it a lot more than the other watches I had in the past. Realistically the one that she ordered for me isn't even close to the 20+ - seconds off per day that I have heard these things error on average. Realistically for $150 there are a ton of accurate watches out there in the market. Is it going to get you any street cred with someone rocking a Vacheron or a Royal Oak, heck no! But realistically that isn't what matters in life! My mortgage is being paid and I know I didn't do something shady like that banker to get earn my living.

 

[Luis G.]

About $300 for a watch with an ETA 2824 in it is fair I think. I went through a long fascination with watches, until one day I saw this banker that I have to deal with rocking a A Lange & Sohne, it was 55,000 retail. Blew my world, the guy was in institutional sales and I don't even think he could pronounce A Lange & Sohne let alone know what he was wearing. But anyhow, kind of blew my mind and I started getting rid of my watches which weren't cheap except for one Hamilton Chrono. It was 2008, people were losing houses and this guy was profiting on privatizing companies that he helped take public. It made me really feel dirty about working in finance.

With the Rolexes and Omegas gone I am really happy that my wife bought me a Seiko SKX007 for my bday. I actually like it a lot more than the other watches I had in the past. Realistically the one that she ordered for me isn't even close to the 20+ - seconds off per day that I have heard these things error on average. Realistically for $150 there are a ton of accurate watches out there in the market. Is it going to get you any street cred with someone rocking a Vacheron or a Royal Oak, heck no! But realistically that isn't what matters in life! My mortgage is being paid and I know I didn't do something shady like that banker to get earn my living.

Sounds like you are happy. But I can't help but sense some envy in your post however.
A jerk of a guy wore an expensive watch, so you sell your high end collection? And this is what really threw you of?

 

[cchu518]

Actually it was what the guy did in the case of sketchy private placements and bad banking deals with tons of warrants that only benefitted a small group of investors that made me realize I was chasing a carrot for no decent reason. I think I might be burnt out from working in finance for 15 years.

 

[AustinOX]

Not sure what some a**hole having an ALS has to do with the price of tea in China, or what his mid five figure watch had to do with your mid four figure watches. Did you donate the proceeds to charity? Regardless of your personal decision I'd have to say that $300 is more than fair for a new Swiss auto- it's a bargain. Considering that loose elabore grade movements are $200 (obviously less for a volume buyer) plus engineering and manufacturing of the case, design/lume for the dial, bezels, crown, gaskets, crystal, and assembly- I have no issues with ETA powered watches priced from $500-$1,000. Depending on the grade/adjustment of the movement and technology associated with the case (ie: Sinn & Damasko hardened cases, antimagnetic, shock resistant, etc) I think there are some up to $2,000 that are still worth the money.

 

[CARRERA50]

After 7 very happy years with my Orange Monster (about $125 at the time) I recently bought a Seiko 5 with
the same 7S series caliber as the Monster. No manual wind or hack feature, but outstanding quality and
performance for less than $90.

 

[cchu518]

It had to do with what I was making at at the time. I don't know about other people but I come from a very, very blue collar working class background, by 2008 that had all changed, I was earning more than 97% of the population in America. However, in what I do for a living I have to work with the top 1% of earners. I.E. my boss owns half of a floor of a building off of Central Park and she owns a condo on a ship called the world that all it does is well...go around the world. Realistically the 1% make a hell of a lot more and live in a totally different world than someone who is upper middle class. I was chasing a life that had nothing to do with me as I'm not the 1%. I don't own a floor of a doorman building off of central park, lmao.

That said in 2008, we were steeped in recession and people were getting laid off, people losing their homes, my neighborhood was full of house for sale signs, it was depressing, and I was basically at the height of that whole chasing "paper" game. Part of ALL of that was being fascinated with expensive watches. Part of it was just having a science background and loving mechanical things but the other part of it was the pure bling factor. So the same bankers who took a whole lot of Companies public in the 2000's were the same people coming to me and my clients TELLING them that the best thing they could do for themselves was to take the Company private in 2008 so that they could continue to get paid commissions. This was because the deal flow and their commissions off of IPO's essentially dried up when people stopped investing in equities.

The whole process of that combined with my wife losing her job as a sell side analyst (they cut 10% of the work force to give all the rainmakers their bonuses that year) was just an eye opener as to what was important. I sold off a lot of watches and it helped keep us afloat while my wife went back to get her MBA and we were short one income. So symbolically for me it was a lot.

I basically work in a field that allows the rich to get richer and not benefit others. That said you are correct there are a lot of bargains out there. Some of the more chunky watches you just have to figure out if you want a really big watch or not, otherwise a Khaki Field auto can be found for like 200 and change with an ETA in it.

Not sure what some a**hole having an ALS has to do with the price of tea in China, or what his mid five figure watch had to do with your mid four figure watches. Did you donate the proceeds to charity? Regardless of your personal decision I'd have to say that $300 is more than fair for a new Swiss auto- it's a bargain. Considering that loose elabore grade movements are $200 (obviously less for a volume buyer) plus engineering and manufacturing of the case, design/lume for the dial, bezels, crown, gaskets, crystal, and assembly- I have no issues with ETA powered watches priced from $500-$1,000. Depending on the grade/adjustment of the movement and technology associated with the case (ie: Sinn & Damasko hardened cases, antimagnetic, shock resistant, etc) I think there are some up to $2,000 that are still worth the money.

 

[GG_Blaisdell]

Nice watch. Reminds me of the Seiko SGG731 -

Titanium, solid link band, quartz mov't, sapphire crystal. 100m water resist. $190 shipped or so.