Liner/frame lock, lock geometry

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I didn't pay enough attention in geometry glass ... Does anyone know of a chart or at least how to figure this out? I'm trying to find out how to calculate the minim angle on a blade tang lock face based upon the length of the lockbar.

I.e. Assuming the liner lock face is 90° to the sides: a shorter lock bar would need a steeper angle (say 9°) whereas a longer lockbar could get away with a lower angle (say 7°). If you were to go too low for a given lockbar length the lock bar would travel all the way across the face and not get tighter (to allow for wear).
 
Can't believe no one chimed in on this lol.

I modeled it up in Fusion 360, for an idea of what I'm talking about. The liner is off of a knife I designed and am making. the Lockbar length from the bottom of the relief is 2.152", and the relief itself is .045" thin.
i-XB5Ct8s-1903x1070.jpg

i-j89zWNv-1903x1070.jpg




So that being said, I made a circle (2.152" radius) with the center being the inside of the lockbar relief (.045" in from the outside of the liner). You can see that here. The top rectangle represents the .156" thick blade, and the lower rectangle represents the lock bar. This view is as if you would be looking directly at the edge side of the knife w/ a 0% lock up (this isn't accurate though because it will be offset at .020" w/ washers and have ~30% lock up so see below for that).

i-xtwk257-1903x1070.jpg


It looks like the lockbar angle would fail at 3.3° based upon this, but again, this is only w/ a 0% lock up and no washer space.
i-2jCjfdM-1903x1070.jpg


With a 30% lockup it looks like a 6° angle would be a great angle (I'm doing lock inserts, not titanium or I would likely increase the angle to prevent some stick), but the problem is that as the lockbar face moves over it follows a curve - not a straight line.
i-fb353fs-1903x1070.jpg


So I found that 6° would fail. I basically offset the inside of the lockbar by .020" (which is what the washers will do) then was able to move the blade up and down to simulate early or late lock-up based upon this. Check it out. It looks like 7° would be the minimum safe application for a lockbar this length, what do you think?

i-GBHH9kV-1903x1070.jpg

i-tCfpC9f-1903x1070.jpg
 
marthinus marthinus , would love for you to chime in here as I've read a bunch of prior posts of yours on lock up geometry - just nothing addressing this specifically.

Even though I don't have Bob Terzoula's book, it seems from reading other's comments that it addresses radius'd lock faces, not flat ones like I'm doing.
 
I’m not that smart and am only in liner locks a couple of knives. I’ve been able to speak with a few maker’s that I feel are very talented and got to handle knives from both. I’ve heard somewhere between 7-9 degrees is a good zone to shoot for, so I aim for 8 degrees. I’m certain there are more ways to skin the cat-curious what others have to say on how they do it.

Jeremy
 
thanks guys, yeah it's just nice to be able to model it up and see why it's this range - I do have more peace of mind now on what angles to start with. Now I just have to test them out w/ the inserts to see what works best!
 
Some good modeling there! I am not in front of a PC now but will read through everything again and see where I can assist and type a proper reply.
 
Hi Razor Edge.

Apologies for the late reply, I am in the process of unpacking following moving.

I am going to work in mm for my own aspect, but will try and convert back to inches.

In short, I only found one piece of advice from a maker I contacted. I mention that last.

Basic principles to your design:

Lock length: 2.152" - 54.6608 mm (Mine is normally similar length to around 60mm)
Lock relief: .045" - 1.143 mm (Once again similar to mine)
Lock relief size: ? (Unknown - What is the size of the cutout? I have experimented from 8mm - 12 mm, multiple cutouts with 2mm ballnose spread out over 7mm - 12mm. I currently like a 12mm ball nose as when I shape the Ti it forms a tear drop :) This is not important for this discussion but can effect your lock tension of coarse and the amount of pressure on the lock bar0
Washers: .020" - 0.508 mm (I think this is might be a bit thick if it is per side. That is my total space on both sides of the blade. I tend to aim for 0.2mm or 0.00787402" per side)
Blade thickness: 0.156"

In Bob.T's book he discusses that a radius lock face can be done and he uses a 2" radius wheel. He does not discuss offset on that blade so based off of my modeling a blade that is on the center line gives you a 8.5 degree lock face. But you would have a "undercut" or "pocket" in the lock face. Not a bad thing to have but can lead to later lockup (note I am of the opinion, the later the safer) as the radius as far more gradual vs a tighter radius or flat lock face. A flat lock face one can grind on a disc, I have and had repeatable results as does another South African maker, but I have transitioned to radius lock faces due to extra accuracy that I can achieve, and I have the equipment to be able to do it so why not?

I ran an experiment and went down to 6 degrees with this "pocket" and it results in a very safe lockup, though I should have aimed for 8.5 degrees I wanted to go low as possible and see what happens.

Angles that give issues are less than 5 degrees would result in stick, more than 10 degrees would result in slipping. I have made the mistake of going above 10 degrees, I did not do my modeling correct and need to resolve that issue once I am set up again.


Bob T further discusses using a core drill bit. 0.156 blade would require a 1" cutter with a offset of 5 thousands of an inch to create the correct angle and "pocket" for the lock to seat in. Found it and sent it to you via instagram while typing this.

So the last piece of advice I got from a local maker, that is a friend of Bob T, told me, your lock grinding wheel needs to be smaller in diameter than the length of your lock.
 
Hi Razor Edge.

Apologies for the late reply, I am in the process of unpacking following moving.

I am going to work in mm for my own aspect, but will try and convert back to inches.

In short, I only found one piece of advice from a maker I contacted. I mention that last.

Basic principles to your design:

Lock length: 2.152" - 54.6608 mm (Mine is normally similar length to around 60mm)
Lock relief: .045" - 1.143 mm (Once again similar to mine)
Lock relief size: ? (Unknown - What is the size of the cutout? I have experimented from 8mm - 12 mm, multiple cutouts with 2mm ballnose spread out over 7mm - 12mm. I currently like a 12mm ball nose as when I shape the Ti it forms a tear drop :) This is not important for this discussion but can effect your lock tension of coarse and the amount of pressure on the lock bar0
Washers: .020" - 0.508 mm (I think this is might be a bit thick if it is per side. That is my total space on both sides of the blade. I tend to aim for 0.2mm or 0.00787402" per side)
Blade thickness: 0.156"

In Bob.T's book he discusses that a radius lock face can be done and he uses a 2" radius wheel. He does not discuss offset on that blade so based off of my modeling a blade that is on the center line gives you a 8.5 degree lock face. But you would have a "undercut" or "pocket" in the lock face. Not a bad thing to have but can lead to later lockup (note I am of the opinion, the later the safer) as the radius as far more gradual vs a tighter radius or flat lock face. A flat lock face one can grind on a disc, I have and had repeatable results as does another South African maker, but I have transitioned to radius lock faces due to extra accuracy that I can achieve, and I have the equipment to be able to do it so why not?

I ran an experiment and went down to 6 degrees with this "pocket" and it results in a very safe lockup, though I should have aimed for 8.5 degrees I wanted to go low as possible and see what happens.

Angles that give issues are less than 5 degrees would result in stick, more than 10 degrees would result in slipping. I have made the mistake of going above 10 degrees, I did not do my modeling correct and need to resolve that issue once I am set up again.


Bob T further discusses using a core drill bit. 0.156 blade would require a 1" cutter with a offset of 5 thousands of an inch to create the correct angle and "pocket" for the lock to seat in. Found it and sent it to you via instagram while typing this.

So the last piece of advice I got from a local maker, that is a friend of Bob T, told me, your lock grinding wheel needs to be smaller in diameter than the length of your lock.

Thanks so much man!

Yeah I'm going for a flat ground lock face, not radius'd like Bob T's. It's easier to do, pretty standard in the industry and works well. And most radius'd lock faces I have found seem to develop lock slip at some point, but it may be because it's done incorrectly.

Yeah I'm doing .020" per side on the washers. The relief area is around .5" or so
 
Thanks so much man!

Yeah I'm going for a flat ground lock face, not radius'd like Bob T's. It's easier to do, pretty standard in the industry and works well. And most radius'd lock faces I have found seem to develop lock slip at some point, but it may be because it's done incorrectly.

Yeah I'm doing .020" per side on the washers. The relief area is around .5" or so

I have had flat lock faces slip as well. :)


These locks are difficult to get right but when they are done right and work they work well.

Good luck with this challenge
 
I have had flat lock faces slip as well. :)


These locks are difficult to get right but when they are done right and work they work well.

Good luck with this challenge

That's true lol. Thanks for chiming in!
 
Nice thread guys ! ! !
I won't be making knives but this could surely help me if I swap out a blade and need to understand a problem. I think.
Very cool !

Josh : may your knife making go well :thumbsup:
 
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