Liner Lock / Frame Lock - Release Cutout?

C

Chris "Anagarika"

Joined
Mar 7, 2001
Messages
4,608
I know this has been discussed before, I brought it up again based on my recent new experience.

Before I start, the reason this is on Spyderco forum (as opposed to General) is because I highly respect Sal and would like to share this as a feedback and getting input from everyone, and that some of in house design features this: Military, Tenacious family, etc.

The feature I'm looking at is the cutout at non locking slab for easy unlocking. So far, I have been thinking if the benefit outweight the danger of accidental unlocking as many of the proponent stated so. The non availability of this on the Gayle Bradley has also been debated and some owner even created their own notch.

Another notion is that frame lock generally is more secure than liner lock, due to the hand grip reinforcing the lock. After tonight's experience, I'm rethinking this notion.

Firstly, the knife wasn't a Spyderco and the cutout is smaller than my Resilience. It was my other EDC: Enlan EL08 (frame lock).

The incident went as following:
After washing the blade (in preparation for food use), I usually flick the knife (or spoon, or fork for that matter) downward to get rid of most water before wiping it dry. Have been doing it countless time.
Tonight, the right hand forefinger combined with the flick action somehow released te lock and the blade folded due to to downward momentum. It went to bite me as shown:
9634933709_a0f9046559_b.jpg

(Picture taken after bleeding stopped.)

I admit the action of flicking had pulled the lockbar outward, releasing the blade. It has nothing to do with lock strength, etc. and it's purely due to my carelessness. However, having done same actions countless time, tonight was the first. I'll be more careful next time. In any case, I plan to try it with the Resilience after the wound healed ;)

My theory would be without the cutout, this would not happen. Also, a liner lock with a slab over the lock will reduce this possibility as well.

However, it's stated before by many, that the benefit outweight the danger. Can anyone share personal experience of the benefit that would not be possible if the cutout is not there?

I'd like to add and clarify:
The knife lockup is good, solid an no blade play to start with. The spring tension is also normal, similar to Resilience (although I don't take measurement, just by feeling when unlocking)

Also I don't mean to say such design is bad. As with everything in life, good and bad comes together.
I'm very much want to know if the benefit really outweighs the danger.
 
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I realize that no mater what you can't make everyone happy but I prefer no cut out .
IMO one handed opening is a great convenience but I prefer to close with both hands as a measure of safety.

If you think about it there are a lot of us who make our living using our hands and rely on the fine motor skills of our fingers.
I'm personally a self employed one man show and a bad cut literally could really put me in a bad spot.
 
Hi Chris,

Thanx for sharing and thanx for the kind thoughts.

It is an interesting discussion. One that we have every time we are doing product development on a linerlock or Reeve Integral Lock. We will generally go with what the designer prefers, after all, it is their design. On my own designs which include a linerlock or RIL, I like to add a finger choil which does offer some degree of safety.

I would like to know exactly what your flicking process entails and how it cut you? Do you have that worked out? Finding the ideal solution, or at least a better one would be a nice thing to sort out in this thread. Anything that improves the safety or performance of an "edge" is a good thing and part of the evolution.

sal
 
Sal, thanks for adding choils to your designs. I have never cut myself with one.

On the other hand, the Tenacious and it's siblings really like the taste of my blood. I have to be extra careful when closing them. More so than a Millie or Para 2. But the Spydie that I have actually stopped carrying because of this is my Terzuola Slipit. It tries to bite me EVERY TIME I USE IT. I know that some folks would rather have the extra cutting edge, but I love a choil for both the safety aspect and capability to choke up on the grip and have the great control that a choil gives me.
 
Hi KrisOK,

Part of the problem is designing for relatively inexperienced customers. The argument for Blade length to handle or cutting edge to handle is purely an "eye" thing, but that's the tendency. We get many complaints for our finger choils and shorter edges.

sal
 
For the love of Pete, let's not turn knives into yet one more thing where "idiot proofing" takes precedence over usability.
 
Sal,

Thank you for your kind words. I heard that you designed the Military, and that the cut out is purposely made to help closing the knife. However, it has a choil that will prevent similar cut. On several models, I guess only Lionspy and Techno have similar risk.

I flick it down and out, similar to when resetting mercury thermometer:
(quoted from wiki, emphasis by me)
A special kind of mercury-in-glass thermometer, called a maximum thermometer, works by having a constriction in the neck close to the bulb. As the temperature rises, the mercury is pushed up through the constriction by the force of expansion. When the temperature falls, the column of mercury breaks at the constriction and cannot return to the bulb, thus remaining stationary in the tube. The observer can then read the maximum temperature over the set period of time. To reset the thermometer it must be swung sharply. This design is used in the traditional type of medical thermometer.

I grip the knife like in the picture and flick it outward down, using lower arm & wrist. Start with edge in, tip upward, lower arm vertical, end with edge down, tip pointed forward, lower arm horizontal.

I suspect the release happened at the start of the movement, as the wrist/finger did a sudden pull on the lockbar (counter clockwise), and the blade swung down when arm stopped the movement (similar to overstrike, without the strike). Understanding this will make me more careful next time.

Hope it clarifies.

@ Deacon, Gooeytek & Rev, totally agree that functionality should come and a knife shouldn't be made idiot proof. I have also stated it was due to my carelessness and not blaming the knife. I'll test the Resilience (that has G10 over the lock) after the wound heals, as it is specific to right hand flick movement. My post here is to understand the actual benefit of the cutout, as I personally don't find any (have several others without the cutout, no trouble unlocking, even with left hand).

Personally I'd stay with no cutout, but since I love the Resilience, I'd be more mindful when using it (or in this case, drying it). When time permits, perhaps changing the non lock G10 to one without cutout.
 
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Chris "Anagarika";12594197 said:
@ Deacon, Gooeytek & Rev, totally agree that functionality should come and a knife shouldn't be made idiot proof. I have also stated it was due to my carelessness and not blaming the knife. I'll test the Resilience (that has G10 over the lock) after the wound heals, as it is specific to right hand flick movement. My post here is to understand the actual benefit of the cutout, as I personally don't find any (have several others without the cutout, no trouble unlocking, even with left hand).

Personally I'd stay with no cutout, but since I love the Resilience, I'd be more mindful when using it (or in this case, drying it). When time permits, perhaps changing the non lock G10 to one without cutout.
Click to expand...
Chris, as with most things the benefit is going to be subjective and vary from user to user. For me, it would be convenience, pure and simple. I'm a senior citizen and have kept my fingernails short, basically even with my fingertips, for as long as I can remember. Closing a liner or framelock without the cutout, while not impossible, is definitely less convenient for me. I will admit that the only knives I ever close fast are DA autos, where I really don't have a choice, so speed of closing is never an issue for me.

Beyond that, I have only my observations of the posts on this and the Spyderco Factory Forum. I've seen numerous cases where folks have complained about the difficulty of closing models which lack a cutout, most notably the Bradley. A number of them have even modified their knives to include one. On the other hand, While there have been posts expressing concern that the cutout might allow accidental closing, reliable reports of it actually happening have be lacking. What I find more significant is that, while I've seen plenty of modded liner and framelocks, I cannot recall ever seeing a photo posted where the cutout had been eliminated. In fact I think yours it the first post I've read where someone mentioned even considering that option.

As for safety when closing, I doubt there's any 100% safe way to close a folding knife quickly and even more certain there's no 100% safe way to do it quickly, one-handed.
 
Deacon,

Thank you for your feedback. I didn't think of senior citizens (although perhaps will be one in not so distant future ;) ) in my assessment.
I do agree that the accidental closure is rare, and as mentioned, I had done the same move countless time (washing and drying my EDC prior to food use), this is the first time I had the accident. It is also to be noted that only recently I have actively using the knife (large frame lock), and previously, the Resilience never had that issue (which is why I would test it once the finger healed, with safety of course), and other locking system (Axis, backlock, mid-lock, Tri-ad, etc.).

I do think, though, that adding a choil will help improve safety against accidental closure. Still this 'choil' vs 'maximum edge' also have been debated heatedly before.

I'm hoping others will chime in with more insight from personal experience, when closing a knife with cutout is more than just convenience.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi KrisOK,

Part of the problem is designing for relatively inexperienced customers. The argument for Blade length to handle or cutting edge to handle is purely an "eye" thing, but that's the tendency. We get many complaints for our finger choils and shorter edges.

sal
Click to expand...

Personally I LOVE the choils. They work great on my Milis, but it also gives me a chance to own a smallest EDC and still be able to get a full grip on the handle. After the Spyerhole, the choil is my favorite feature on my spydercos
 
Update:

After the wound healed up, I did try simulating it again, but couldn't. :confused:

So it might be a one time fluke, or my traume has embedded a permanent careful handling.

Recently acquired a GB, it give much more comfort in mind. I see Hungarian has the same design:thumbup:

@sal,
Sent you email sometime back but bounced by Spyderco mail server spam filter (good thing in my book;)). Resending from my gmail account, hope you get it.
 
I like choils most for their added safety. I find that one handed closing is just as important or more important than one handed opening. After you cut, your hands might be more full (one thing cut into two;)), so you may not have two hands to close the knife. Ultimately, I would rather have a compression lock, CBBL, or Bolt Action Lock for the utmost safety, but if one hand closing involves swinging the knife down on my thumb/thumbnail then I am glad the choil is there. A liner/frame lock w/out a choil can get you in trouble.
 
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