Liner Lock...Obsolete?

S

Skunkabilly

Joined
Jun 29, 2002
Messages
86
OK I know nothing about the history and evolution of folders, but running a tactical search, it seems that the Axis is regarded as superior to the Liner locking folders. On another forum where I was pointed here, I was advised to go with an Axis lock.

So, my question is, will it be worth it for me to get a liner locking knife, or am I just better off sticking with the axis?

BTW are Axis and Liner Benchmade trademarks and patents?
 
The Axis was invented by McHenry/Williams and I think is licenced to BM. The liner lock is credited to Michael Walker and I am not sure of the patents involved.

I don't theink the liner lock is any more obsolete than the lockback or slipjoint.
 
I will totally agree that the Axis lock or it's many variants is a stronger lock than liner. I am by no means a liner lock fan, infact it is my least favorite, that being said I think that it has it's place in the knife market.
 
imo the axis lock is the best look on the market right now, followed by the framelock. the thing is only benchmades can use the axis lock although SOG also has their version called the arc lock (which imo is not as good) but liner locks aren't obsolete, i personally dislike liner locks but if a knife i really like has a liner lock i wouldn't be hesitant to pick it up, and i don't think liner locks are ever going to be obsolete since you can make the best looking knives with a liner lock due to it's inherent design
 
liner lock obsolete?? not by a far shot imho. some of the best custom knives on the market are either exclusivly liner lock (ie emerson) or 99+% liner (ie pat crawford other than a few carnies w/a rolling lock)

some of the best designs, currently, are liner lock, ala MT LCC, BM 800 series, 910 series, all the emerson production knives, including my personal fav, the SOCFK w/green G10 and black tanto balde and waved, etc etc

yes i think the axis has its place, and is an excellent design, i have 3 axis locks myself ( a 710 prototype, an 806SD2 pre production, and my std everyday 806 SD2 ) and i love them, but since BM has the design patented (i would think) no one but BM can use it..

so that leaves ya w/the liner lock, rolling lock (whew dont get mestarted on that one) the spydie compression lock (which looks good to me) and frame locks (nothing wrong w/FL knives for sure)

but still, the overwhelming majority of folders around still employ the liner lock system, which, when well executed (thats the trick imho) are as good as any, are darned close, and BETTER than some, imho.

greg
 
Liner locks won't be obsolete, however it was held that other locks are better because the others may retent the blade when closed (Axis, Lockbacks) and the lock could be created to hold the same or better strength and reliability (frame locks, axis, etc...)
However, as other have stated, linerlocks makes the knife looks the best, because it's mostly hidden from view, and created properly, it would be strong enough for most of the circumstances.
 
Liner locks are not obsolete but I would not trust the lighter ones. Check out the Strider AR. The frame of that liner lock knife is .100" thick. Compare that to the typical .040-.050 thick lock and you can see a clear difference in reliability and strength. Of course, the framelock is more reliable yet and usually even thicker. Thicker lock equals more contact between the tang and lock face therefore stronger and better lockup provided the fit and angles are properly contructed.
 
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As long as people make them like this they won't be obsolete!
 
I assume that when you say "frame lock" youre talking about the type of lock used on the Sebenza. The Sebenzas integral "liner"/frame lock is pretty much the same concept as a normal liner lock, but done in a much more rugged way than the typical, thin liner locks. So, no one would argue that the sebenzas lock is flimsy or obsolete, at least i hope not, and thus, by extension, liner locks arent obsolete, as long as theyre suitably thick and the tang and lock mate well, as is the case with the Sebenza.

Also, while its true that many customs use a LL, the very expensive, high-end customs seem to use rather flimsy, thin liner locks, another indication that theyre not really meant to use very hard if at all.
 
Quote by Megalobyte

Also, while its true that many customs use a LL, the very expensive, high-end customs seem to use rather flimsy, thin liner locks, another indication that theyre not really meant to use very hard if at all.
Click to expand...

Boy Megalobyte, that sure does paint high end liner locks with a very broad brush. Maybe you can qualify that statement somewhat. Do you mean to say that all high end liner lock folders have flimsy locks?
 
Megalobyte, interesting post! I have somewhat of a different take on things, if you're willing to indulge me...

Originally posted by Megalobyte
The Sebenzas integral "liner"/frame lock is pretty much the same concept as a normal liner lock, but done in a much more rugged way than the typical, thin liner locks. So, no one would argue that the sebenzas lock is flimsy or obsolete, at least i hope not, and thus, by extension, liner locks arent obsolete, as long as theyre suitably thick and the tang and lock mate well, as is the case with the Sebenza.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I buy the logic that since a frame lock is not X, the liner lock by extension must not be X. The frame lock is not a liner lock, since it's not just a liner that's blocking the tang, but the entire frame. This isn't just semantics, it makes it an entirely different kind of lock, IMO. The really substantive difference, again IMO, is that with a frame lock, when you grip the knife tightly to use it hard, your hand actually helps reinforce the lockup. With a liner lock, your hand not only doesn't reinforce the lockup, but if the liner is not buried deep enough in the frame (and many aren't), your hand actually compromises the lockup.

I believe that the increase in reliability that a framelock provides over a linerlock is substantially due to this advantage that the framelock gets a built-in reliability boost by your hand. Most people zero-in on the fact that the framelock also provides for a much thicker locking surface than a typical liner lock, and while doubtless this makes a difference in strength and reliability, I think the difference in reliability from the thicker bar is overblown somewhat, in that hand reinforcement is really the bulk of the reliability boost.

And, while I believe the reliability of a liner lock can be increased by a thicker liner, the fundamental problem of liner lock reliability is one of geometry, which is why I've seen thin flimsy liners that I can't fail no matter what, and loads of big overbuilt tacticals with thick liners that I can fail easily. I think thick liners allow you to have more slop in the geometry, but given that the maker has gotten the proper geometry, even very thin liners will be very reliable. Which is why I'd caution about reading too much into super thick liners.


Joe
 
OK, i guess i need to qualify that statment. I didnt mean all custom knives, i am sure there are many which have a thick, strong lock. I guess here's what i meant. First, i was reffering to so called "art knives" when i say high end custom, the very fancy folders with MOP/mammoth ivory, fileworked everything, damascus steels, i have purchased a few knives like this, and all 3 had liner locks that in no way even approaches that of a Sebenza. These are knives from highly respected makers, but i do not think that they were designed with hard use in mind. Now, if we're talking about custom TACTICAL folders, i am sure that most have a very solid liner lock. So, i admit, i should have been a little clearer in what i meant, sometimes something sounds good in my head, and makes sense, but i dont express it properly. And, im certainly not knocking custom knives, im one of their biggest fans, but i do feel that the very fancy ones arent meant to be used hard.
 
Your logic for your previous post was flawed besides the fact that liner locks and frame locks are different animals.
Given that the property of not being obsolete was distributed to every knife with a Frame Lock, and the assumption that a Frame Lock is a type of Liner Lock, the conclusion that Liner Locks are not obsolete cannot be made because there was nothing in your premise that have asserted some property to all the objects with liner locks.
However, I still believe that a well built liner lock won't be obsolete any time.
 
Well, I've been playing with a Buck Strider spearpoint for the last couple of months, and the liner lock on it looks about as fragile as a bank vault. The whole piece appears as durable as a ball peen hammer. I don't think it's going to fail even under extraordinary duty or wear out any time soon:D .
 
And yet, I've gotten one to fail a light spine whack test, and I believe Cliff also got his to fail without much stress. Big fat liner does not equal reliable, something important to remember. That's not to say that the Strider I looked at wasn't just a dud, I'm sure many of them are perfectly solid. But a thick liner, and a solid feeling lock-up do not reliability make; be sure to test it out, with whatever tests you feel are valid. I do this with all my locks, even my axis locks.

Joe
 
With a liner lock or frame lock, fit is everything when it comes to reliability. If the lock bar surface and blade tang are not properly aligned then the lock will not hold, no matter how thick the liner or handle frame.
 
Liner locks are not obsolete. There are many ways to accomplish the same task. A well made linerlock is perfectly acceptable. Like others have said, the key is to buy one from a reputable company. Spyderco does a great job on their liner locks BTW. I've heard that Microtech and Strider were also very well made. I'm sure there are others that I have forgot about though. The majority of my knives are liner locks, and I have yet to experience failure. I really like liner locks because they are so easy to open and close with one hand.

There are a lot of other locks out there that I like as well. Recently, the frame lock and compression lock have really impressed me. I'm also considering gettting a Benchmade so I can try out the AXIS lock.
 
dont let a knifes looks fool ya - i have seen crawford kaspers that had extensive filework/ivory handles/gold inlay/etc and they still have the same, std crawford kasper design liner lock, which, imho, is one of the better if not best renditions of the liner lock, and darrel ralph makes a lot of fancy art knives, but below all the gold/etc, its still a maxx,minimaxx, EDC, etc

i disagree that customs arent meant for hard use, imho the makers want ya to use them hard, why else do they re-do the knife to almost if not LNIB condition for, like $20 or $30 or so?? they WANT you to use them. they are rightfully proud of the work they do, and want you to work the knife as hard as possible to find any (?) weakpoints, etc of there design imho.

greg
 
The Axis lock might be better but isn't it an EXCLUSIVE lock. Does BM even license the AL to be used by other knifemakers? If not it is a moot issue.
 
Why I don't like linerlocks:

It's not that they're weak--they can be as strong as most locks on the market.
The real fault I see is that the blade retention is'nt strong enough. It's just too easy for the linerlocks to come open unintentionally.
A linerlock with a safety, like the Kershaw Boa, is a better lock IMHO.
Even a linerlock knife with a slip-joint backspring would be okay for me.
But otherwise, I'll stay away from linerlocks.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
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