Lion Kris looking for information

[baconfan]

Good day!
I bought this really cool kris. It looks to have a glass eye, the other is missing. Carved lion wooden sheath with a metal wrap. The only thing I think I have found is that the hilt is a topi, something about wrangka maybe since there is a lion and lastly that maybe it was a tourist kris?
Any confirmed information would be great. I don't plan to sell, I just like to know for my own personal knowledge. Plus my kiddos keep asking if I found out new info. It would be nice to be sure about something
Now I have to figure out how to post the pictures lol. Standby for follow up.

Update: I think I did it!! Thank you A Arathol .
Here are the pics. Let me know if you cannot view them,

https://imgur.com/a/7tC4f3z

.

 

[Arathol]

Open free Imgur account
Upload pics to Imgur
Open pic on Imgur
Copy BBCode of the pic, its the one with the IMG tags
Paste the link here
The BBCode for this forum will look like this

[img]https://i.imgur.com/wrs8A8g.jpg[/img]

and will make the picture appear in-line with the text like this

 

[TC]

It may not help much, but it would seem the tiger (they don't have lions in India, do they?) is a male.

 

[baconfan]

It may not help much, but it would seem the tiger (they don't have lions in India, do they?) is a male.

How can you tell? I have looked for the "obvious" but can't seem to see it
I don't know if it's from India, but if you can tell, maybe then it would be a tiger?
I am completely new to the kris world. I just really liked it when I saw it in this weird antique store. One of those cool items you can't pass up. They claimed they also didn't know much about it, but it didn't bother me. It had me at hello.
Also thank you for the information. Anything is helpful and very interesting to find out.

 

[Arathol]

Lions were in the past found from Africa through India. Depictions of lions can be found throughout SE Asia, from India, through Cambodia and Thailand right to China, and some parts of Indonesia such as Bali seem to have a lot of Chinese influence. The lion often appears in Bhuddist and Hindu religious imagery, often as a symbol of protection and strength.
As to it being a tourist item, I wouldn't say that just yet. The blade looks to be fairly old pamor tiban style, maybe quite a bit older than you think....Probably from Bali or Java....
Don't mess with or do anything to it until you find out what it really is.

 

[baconfan]

Lions were in the past found from Africa through India. Depictions of lions can be found throughout SE Asia, from India, through Cambodia and Thailand right to China, and some parts of Indonesia such as Bali seem to have a lot of Chinese influence. The lion often appears in Bhuddist and Hindu religious imagery, often as a symbol of protection and strength.
As to it being a tourist item, I wouldn't say that just yet. The blade looks to be fairly old pamor tiban style, maybe quite a bit older than you think....Probably from Bali or Java....
Don't mess with or do anything to it until you find out what it really is.

Thanks! That's a lot of great information! And no I'm not going to do anything to it, I didn't buy it to clean it up or modify. Though I have pulled the blade out quite a few times to look at it and reshow the family. I also looked at it under a microscope today, because I'm just that person that has one to look closer at everything. Nothing came of that venture, but I really don't know what I'm looking for anyway. Only know that sometimes there can be makers marks on blades, but I don't know if that applies here.
If you need a better pic of the blade, I can send you one. And if you know who I can contact that would know more, that would be awesome. I didn't realize how hard it would be to find information about this.

 

[TC]

How can you tell? I have looked for the "obvious" but can't seem to see it
I don't know if it's from India, but if you can tell, maybe then it would be a tiger?
I am completely new to the kris world. I just really liked it when I saw it in this weird antique store. One of those cool items you can't pass up. They claimed they also didn't know much about it, but it didn't bother me. It had me at hello.
Also thank you for the information. Anything is helpful and very interesting to find out.

OK, I searched, and it looks like there are indeed a few hundred lions in some corner of India today. Not comparable to the tiger population, in any case.

As for the male part, err, well, the design might be suggestive. No, not anatomically correct in the slightest, but at a glance...

 

[Arathol]

Thanks! That's a lot of great information! And no I'm not going to do anything to it, I didn't buy it to clean it up or modify. Though I have pulled the blade out quite a few times to look at it and reshow the family. I also looked at it under a microscope today, because I'm just that person that has one to look closer at everything. Nothing came of that venture, but I really don't know what I'm looking for anyway. Only know that sometimes there can be makers marks on blades, but I don't know if that applies here.
If you need a better pic of the blade, I can send you one. And if you know who I can contact that would know more, that would be awesome. I didn't realize how hard it would be to find information about this.

The design of the hilt (ukiran or hulu) suggests Madura in East Java.

 

[baconfan]

OK, I searched, and it looks like there are indeed a few hundred lions in some corner of India today. Not comparable to the tiger population, in any case.

As for the male part, err, well, the design might be suggestive. No, not anatomically correct in the slightest, but at a glance...

I see what your saying now

 

[baconfan]

The design of the hilt (ukiran or hulu) suggests Madura in East Java.

So this lines up with the rabbit hole I have been going down......maybe.
This could be a "Soldier keris", or representation of one, when the Madurese or Javanese fought with the dutch
However, I can't figure out when that would have happened to hopefully find more information. I have a time range of 1600s to 1950s, which is a needle in a haystack, and I don't see any hard evidence of these being mentioned or sold.
I did come across a keris with a metal wrapping and someone speculating that the metal is not something typical of older kerises......kerisi....keris(s).....sorry if I'm spelling that wrong, but who knows if they are right. They didn't say the basis of their knowledge and did say "speculate".

 

[Arathol]

The Java War was 1825 to 1830.

 

[Arathol]

From what I understand the metal wrapped sheath is more indicative of origin than age, ie from Java.

 

[baconfan]

The Java War was 1825 to 1830.

Maybe something used when they joined the KNIL forces....
It seems too nice though to be something used for fighting. I would think they would be more simple, but maybe these were used with a dress uniform, or something they carved later into a keris that was used in battle, so it's more decorative, but what do I know. Also I do know cultures have carved symbols into to things to bring good luck or protection, so maybe this is the same. All theories of course, no hard evidence yet.

 

[baconfan]

From what I understand the metal wrapped sheath is more indicative of origin than age, ie from Java.

So you really know your stuff, I'm glad I came here. When I google 19th century javanese kris, I get a lot closer results. All also have a metal wrap on the sheath. If I google east javanese, it looks even more similar. Thank you for all the information, and same to you T TC , the family is loving all the new history and it has really made for a fun day.

 

[Arathol]

The Keris is the blade. As with the katana from Japan, the blade may have had different fittings for different activities. Simple wood sheath and grip for field use, fancy expensive fittings for social status use....
The metal covering on this one looks to be topengan, again of East Javan origin I think.
Also, the hilt looks sort of like a western military cavalry style horse, a common motif on Maduran blades, and it has what seem to be western military epaulettes, another motif used in Madura by native Javanese that sided with the Dutch in the conflict.

 

[Arathol]

So you really know your stuff, I'm glad I came here. When I google 19th century javanese kris, I get a lot closer results. All also have a metal wrap on the sheath.

I did a bit of research on these a while back, trying to remember some of it....LOL

 

[baconfan]

The Keris is the blade. As with the katana from Japan, the blade may have had different fittings for different activities. Simple wood sheath and grip for field use, fancy expensive fittings for social status use....
The metal covering on this one looks to be topengan, again of East Javan origin I think.
Also, the hilt looks sort of like a western military cavalry style horse, a common motif on Maduran blades, and it has what seem to be western military epaulettes, another motif used in Madura by native Javanese that sided with the Dutch in the conflict.

Thanks for clearing up what a keris is. I've been all over the place with the use of that.