Looking for a high quality all steel frame lock

not2sharp

not2sharp

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It has become increasing popular over the years to make quality folders out of titanium, to the point where it is now an integral part of the status symbol. But, does this make the knife better? Yes, titanium is lighter than steel, but, only for a given volume. Why couldn't we design a thinner steel bladed knife with as much or more resilience as a far larger titanium version?

Making the body of the knife out of steel would allow us to take advantage of both the advancements in cutlery steels and the advances in heat treatment. Perhaps its time to start investing as much science into the body and handles of knives as we do on our blades. Why not make it all out of premium steels and heat treat all the components for optimal effect?

n2s
 
Y tho?

All steel is going to give you is a heavier knife. Advances in material science around cutlery steel revolve around the edge.

Thinking that just because you can get a good edge on a material that same material is going to be great at other jobs is a mistake.
 
Danke42 said:
Y tho?

All steel is going to give you is a heavier knife. Advances in material science around cutlery steel revolve around the edge.

Thinking that just because you can get a good edge on a material that same material is going to be great at other jobs is a mistake.
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A heavier knife needs not be a bad thing, as long as it is reasonable and results in better ergonomics or strength. I am just asking, where is it written that everything has to be titanium? There are plenty of very nice Damascus steel handled knives made, so why not make a few from premium steels as well? I am not really hung up on the steel, but I believe there is room for some innovation.

n2s
 
How would a 60+ HRC say S110V frame lock work exactly? Assuming you could flex the lock with your thumb, how would it not snap? Or at least crack over time?

The steels used for liners and such are premium for their intended uses.
 
not2sharp said:
A heavier knife needs not be a bad thing, as long as it is reasonable and results in better ergonomics or strength. I am just asking, where is it written that everything has to be titanium? There are plenty of very nice Damascus steel handled knives made, so why not make a few from premium steels as well? I am not really hung up on the steel, but I believe there is room for some innovation.

n2s
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Everything doesn't have to be Titanium (and it isn't) but it's just that for a framelock folder the unique quantities that Ti has make it ideal for the job.

Folks use a lot of steel in bolsters and there are lots of knives with different locking mechanisms that have steel slabs. If you strike framelock from your requirements I bet you'll find way more choices.
 
The Spyderco Foundry is cool in theory because the steel used in the frame is 465 Carpenter stainless and Carpenter XHP for the blade.
 
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not2sharp said:
It has become increasing popular over the years to make quality folders out of titanium, to the point where it is now an integral part of the status symbol. But, does this make the knife better? Yes, titanium is lighter than steel, but, only for a given volume. Why couldn't we design a thinner steel bladed knife with as much or more resilience as a far larger titanium version?

Making the body of the knife out of steel would allow us to take advantage of both the advancements in cutlery steels and the advances in heat treatment. Perhaps its time to start investing as much science into the body and handles of knives as we do on our blades. Why not make it all out of premium steels and heat treat all the components for optimal effect?

n2s
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I like your idea ................
Well..... your wish is our command :) All parts for this folder are made from M2 steel .......and about 63-64 hrc hardness .But now i see that I make mistake , I used carbon over scale .Next one will be pure steel ....;)
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Henry Beige said:
Kershaw Leek is a steel framelock that is not hard to find.
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It is an excellent knife and it certainly demonstrates the concept. But, what if we take it to the next step and ask what sort of steel handle best compliments a particular steel blade and how do we treat both to yield the strongest and most durable functionality?

n2s
 
View attachment 1295282 View attachment 1295281 Camillus made a steel frame EDC folder one version of which utilized a Talonite blade (Stellite 6-BH).
Kershaw made Shallots out of many materials. The knives in the picture started out as all steel. I replaced the non-lock side handle slabs with Aluminum ones. The blades are CPM S-110-V.
The thing you notice about these steel frame lock knives is the overall thinness.
I don't think the handles require a higher end steel. The cheap highly rust resistant handles seem to work fine.
 
99% of steel handle folders appear to use 3cr13 steel - which of course can't be hardened very much, but provides excellent toughness

I doubt this will change anytime soon, it's a low cost option that does the job of being strong & rust resistant
Using any other steel is really just for bragging rights (I guess)
I don't see how going to higher wear resistance steel or higher hardness steel provides any benefit to a handle
 
not2sharp said:
It has become increasing popular over the years to make quality folders out of titanium, to the point where it is now an integral part of the status symbol. But, does this make the knife better? Yes, titanium is lighter than steel, but, only for a given volume. Why couldn't we design a thinner steel bladed knife with as much or more resilience as a far larger titanium version?

Making the body of the knife out of steel would allow us to take advantage of both the advancements in cutlery steels and the advances in heat treatment. Perhaps its time to start investing as much science into the body and handles of knives as we do on our blades. Why not make it all out of premium steels and heat treat all the components for optimal effect?

n2s
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tiguy7 said:
I don't think the handles require a higher end steel. The cheap highly rust resistant handles seem to work fine.
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This.↑↑

301 is already strong enough to make a thin handle. Kershaw Leek has a steel handle that is only 0.35" thick and is plenty strong. At .35" the knife is as thin as you are going to want it. Any thinner and it won't be comfortable to hold. Heck, at .35" it's already thinner than desirable for some applications.
 
Your vintage Spyderco clipits were stainless steel I believe. I've carried an old dlc coated police for almost 30 plus years no problem here. They also made some smaller models as well.
 
Yah, the crux of this is that the lock bar needs to flex. That opens you up to.. stress fracture? Strain fracture?

This would be a really good time to understand how repeated flexing affects the crystal structure of a steel. On the one hand, it seems like the trapped carbon atoms could cause weak points all throughout the lattice.

But on the other hand, there are steels like 52100, which will spring back from a 90 degree bend repeatedly.

This may have to do with how we understand steel comparison charts. It's one thing to look at a bunch of colored bars and see that one steel has "better" strength and toughness than another, but the comparison is only in a narrow context. Put that same steel in a lock bar, and it may simply snap with a brittle "tink!" when it's bent a few degrees.
 
Why would you want an all steel knife?

In some respects, it seems detrimental. Personally, I try to avoid metal knives for medium and heavy duty task.
 
The flex required to have a functional lockbar really negates the advantages of high-end steels (hardness and edge retention). The main things you want from a steel frame are toughness, corrosion resistance, and ability to take an adequate finish quality. There are a lot of cheaper stainless steels that will tick those boxes. H1 steel could be useful for a framelock, since it’s basically rust-proof and pretty tough, but I’m not sure it’s worth the cost, even compared to titanium.
 
Yes, I have played with a great many knives, and I bring this up because there are relatively few high end (lets say $400+) steel handled knives. I am not really concerned about the price, but I see this as a potential solution which is getting less attention then it should.

With like materials we can see better and more durable lockups with little galling or wear at the lockup. No matter how springy the titanium, we have much more experience with springy steels, and some of those can run hundred of thousands of miles, while exposed to the elements without failing.

It is a different solution, and as it gets explored some ideas will underperform, while others will take us further then we thought possible. The real grail for me is the possibility of stronger and more durable knife. Why not explore materials that can be treated, machined, coated and assembled to meet a targeted weight and balance and strength while providing a lock up that is a 100% match with the blade.
n2s
 
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