Looking for A little Clarification on NYC 10-133 Possession of knives sub divisions

[dirtypaulie]

Hello Bladeforums Community. I see there seem to be a lot of questions RE: Knife Carry in NYC. I live here myself & carry a knife. I'm looking for a little Clarification for the Subdivions that are highlighted in Red. Thanks in Advance

Chap. 1 Public Safety 10-133
Historical Note: Formerly 436-5.1

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments.

A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using suck knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

E. Violation of this section shall be an offense punishable by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars or by imprisonment not exceeding fifteen days or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Case notes:
This section promotes a legitimate governmental objective and is not unconstitutionally vague or an improper exercise of the city's police power.------ People v Ortiz 125 Misc. 2d 318 [1984]

Now if the Knife I wish to carry is under 4" am I allowed to carry it all the time?

 

[dirtypaulie]

New York - Penal Law Section 265.01. A person is guilty of
criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:
(1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun
gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal
knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles,
chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or
slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or
(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto,
imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon
with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or
(5) He possesses any dangerous or deadly weapon and is not a
citizen of the United States...
Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree is a class A
misdemeanor.

- Section 265.00 Definitions...
4. "Switchblade knife" means any knife
which has a blade which opens automatically by hand
pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in
the handle of the knife.
5. "Gravity knife" means any
knife has blade which is released from the handle or
sheath thereof by the force of gravity of the application
of centrifugal force which, when released, is locked in
place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other
device. [Note: In NYC, and potentially in other NY
jurisdictions, this definition is construed to apply to
ANY folding knife with a blade that locks open. ]
5-a. "Pilum ballistic knife" means any knife which
has a blade which can be projected from the handle by hand
pressure applied to a button, lever, spring or other
device in the handle of the knife.
5-b. "Metal knuckle knife"
means a weapon that, when closed, cannot function as a set of
metal knuckles, nor as a knife and when open, can function as
both a set of metal knuckles as well as a knife.

The above gives definitions to a switchblade, Gravity Knife, Pilum Ballistic Knife & a metal Knuckle Knife. But there are no definitions for Dagger, Dangerous Knife, dirk & stiletto. Maybe we can get all this info together & stop all the questions

Once again Thanks in advance

 

[HeavyHanded]

As I understand it, any knife under 3.5" that is concealed and does not qualify as a "gravity knife" would be legal. A gravity knife is any knife that can be opened with a flick of the wrist, however inspired the amount of effort, that locks automatically when opened .

dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, stiletto,

Pretty sure the accepted definition of this equals a double-edged knife, or any knife with a sharpened back edge, any push knife, or knife with a blade design reinforced primarily for stabbing. The definition of a "dirk" is a mystery to me. I was in NYC for St Paddy's Day, and a lot of the marching bands had skean dhus tucked into their socks. If that's not a dirk, WTH is?

Edit - didn't notice subsection b), paragraph D

 

[jaymeister99]

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

Put simply, you cannot carry any knife over 4" in blade length. I might add that under normal everyday carry you cannot carry any fixed blades in New York. There may be some exceptions, but dont try it! Somebody else may be better versed than me on this and will chime in.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using suck knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

You must carry your knife concealed. No part of the knife can be showing.

(5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife

You can legally carry a knife that is bigger than 4" if you are going directly to or from hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picknicking, or an employment that requires you to use the type of knife you are carrying.

This doesn't mean you can pick up an 8" survival knife, strap it to your leg and go "fishing" in central park. It needs to make sense, not to mention it would be difficult to explain to the police how you would "need" any knife over 4" for any of the above in NYC, except maybe for employment needs. If you are a chef carrying an 8" chef knife going to work thats ok, as long as its packed away.

Now if the Knife I wish to carry is under 4" am I allowed to carry it all the time?

If the knife is a folder and you carry it completely concealed, then generally speaking yes. BUT with the current issues regarding "gravity knives" in NYC I highly recommend you do not carry any locking knife (IE lockback or liner locks).

I need to put in a disclaimer here. I am not an attorney, this is not legal advise. I would highly recommend sending a letter to the NYC DA office to get in writing what their interpretations are.

 

[dirtypaulie]

Thank you Gentleman I appreciate all the feedback.

Jaymeister thanks for your input & your answers seem to fit exactly with what I get from those paragraphs.

............. I might add that under normal everyday carry you cannot carry any fixed blades in New York. There may be some exceptions, but dont try it! Somebody else may be better versed than me on this and will chime in.............

What I highlighted in red: This is something I want to elaborate on. If I carry a fixed blade under 4" to use at work I don't see how it becomes illegal. Its like this is made to be vague & people can be arrested at any police officers discretion.

The regulation says you can carry a blade under 4" but it clearly bars you from carrying a Dangerous knife. ANY KNIFE CAN BE DANGEROUS whether its a steak knife or spred knife in your kitchen drawer

 

[jaymeister99]

Thank you Gentleman I appreciate all the feedback.

Jaymeister thanks for your input & your answers seem to fit exactly with what I get from those paragraphs.

What I highlighted in red: This is something I want to elaborate on. If I carry a fixed blade under 4" to use at work I don't see how it becomes illegal. Its like this is made to be vague & people can be arrested at any police officers discretion.

The regulation says you can carry a blade under 4" but it clearly bars you from carrying a Dangerous knife. ANY KNIFE CAN BE DANGEROUS whether its a steak knife or spred knife in your kitchen drawer

Well, that might be up for interpretation. Ive asked cop friends in the city who tell me you can't carry anything other than a regular slip joint pocket knife. This isn't necessarily true, but it will help keep you out of trouble!

You can carry a knife of any length to use at work as long as its needed for work. I would think this is the only real exception you could get away with a fixed blade. But it needs to be common sense. You can't pack a tanto knife and say you need to use it at the office. Pack a set of butcher knives on your way to work at the butcher shop... ok. Pack a fillet knife on your way to work at the fish market... ok.

As for the "dangerous knife" I was about to explain then remembered seeing this...
Matter of Jamie D., 59 NY2d 589 (1983). Whether a "knife" is a "dangerous" knife may be determined on the basis of three alternative considerations: one, its own characteristics which show that it is primarily intended for use as a weapon; second, a modification, which converts what would otherwise be a utensil into a weapon; and third, the circumstances of the possession which may reveal that the possessor considers it a weapon and not a utilitarian tool.
- Gun Control in New York: New York's Firearms and Weapons Laws, Lee O. Thomas and Jeffrey Chamberlain

I need to put in a disclaimer here. I am not an attorney, this is not legal advise. I would highly recommend sending a letter to the NYC DA office to get in writing what their interpretations are.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but nothing in the regs states that a fixed blade under 4" isn't every bit as legit as a slipjoint. Make sure it's concealed. Given the current view on folding knives in NYC I'd think you might be better off with a small fixed blade than most folders.

 

[Karda]

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but nothing in the regs states that a fixed blade under 4" isn't every bit as legit as a slipjoint. Make sure it's concealed. Given the current view on folding knives in NYC I'd think you might be better off with a small fixed blade than most folders.

Given the recent stabbings in NYC, carrying a fixed blade would not be the smartest thing to do in NYC right now.

 

[jayinhk]

Also note New York's Finest use the 'palm test' for blade length on the street. They lay the blade across their palm, and if the blade is longer than their palm is wide, you may be charged with Criminal Possession of a Weapon 4th.

 

[dirtypaulie]

I'm definitely going to consult a lawyer RE: this matter as well as request a letter from the DA's office. When this information does come i'll let everyone know the details. Thanks for all the feedback Gentleman. If the regs say you can carry a knife with a blade 4" & under you should be able to. This really needs to be clarified. I only carry a knife to work but yet & still I would like to know all the specifics for myself & to help others. Knowledge is power & the more we know about a subject the better. Where you are, the mind state you're in & how it may come to any Leo's attention that you are indeed carrying a knife all play a key factor. My main issue is this Quota thing that goes on, on a monthly basis. No one should be arrested for carrying a knife that is allowed to be carried legally, but because an officer needs to meet some quota they get handcuffed & brought to the station house for having a knife they use as a tool for work. NYC is run as a business 1st that's why alot of these officers have to harass us working people with tickets for stupidness instead of arresting real criminals

 

[tom19176]

Always remember to carry you knife in NYC out of sight! The knife laws in NYS and NYC are anti knife no matter how you read them. I am a fomer NYC LEO, and no two officers or ADAs seem to agree exactly on knife laws. The one thing that will help the normal law abiding person, is wheter your Fourth Amendment rights were violated. NYC is a Liberal town full of anti knife and anti Second Amendment types, but they are pro Fourth Amendment types to the same extent. Most weapons charges in NYC are dropped for improper cause for the search. Any knife ( or item) that is carried as a weapon in NYS is therefore illegal. A roll of quarters that is carried to fill you fist for punching will bring the same charge as a switchblade (CPW4). I would love to see what the ADA gives you in writing.....

 

[jaymeister99]

Dirtypaulie, do a search on liner locks in NYC and check all the threads here (if you haven't already). I know the issue has been beaten to death here but I had to get this out.

On Long Island I always carry a liner lock with me (except at work). But on trips into the city I make a point to NOT take a liner lock. This is when I switch to the little 2" bladed jack knife.

 

[picklepie159]

I'm no lawyer, but I live here. In Long Island, I can get away with carrying a Kershaw Skyline. However, I don't use the flipper often. In NYC, I ditch anything with a pocket clip, thumbhole, anything that makes a click (linerlocks, lockbacks, flippers, basically every locking mechanism) and anything that opens faster than molasses. Also, it has to look cute.

That leaves me with a) A rough rider stockman and b) A blue SAK with a USB. Not exactly what I like for letter opening, box cutting, string slicing, etc. but everything bigger or "cooler" looking (Remember, NYC'ers think that black= tacticool = dangerous individual) will get you a.) smeared in self-righteous blabber from hipsters and b.) possibly arrested. Although getting arrested over a SAK or slipjoint is still entirely possible, I keep it out of sight at ALL times.

 

[tom19176]

pickliepie, that is a sensible conclusion! A word of caution, in Nassau there are several officers that have started to get the NYC mind set about "gravity knives". My 18 year old son's friend was almost arrested for a small knife that fit the NYC defintion ( they took the knife), and a 22 year old was arrested last week with the sole charge of CPW4 for a "gravity knife".....

 

[jaymeister99]

pickliepie, that is a sensible conclusion! A word of caution, in Nassau there are several officers that have started to get the NYC mind set about "gravity knives". My 18 year old son's friend was almost arrested for a small knife that fit the NYC defintion ( they took the knife), and a 22 year old was arrested last week with the sole charge of CPW4 for a "gravity knife".....

Great. I'm sure it will migrate to Suffolk soon too.

 

[billsreef]

Great. I'm sure it will migrate to Suffolk soon too.

Don't even think that

 

[SVC]

Consider the Spyderco UK pen knife. Great knife, easy to use with one handed opening and closing but no lock. I've had a couple of court officers try their best to flick it out and fail (only then did I mentioned that it didn't have a lock!) and admit that it was OK to carry. Just make sure you carry it in your pocket, not clipped.

 

[eventhorizon]

In late October of 2003 I backpacking on the Appalachian Trail along the NY/NJ border. I could see the Manhattan skyline from a high area on the trail. For three days and nights I did not pass a single hiker.

One night I heard the howls of coyotes. I was a little bit scared. And now I know that I had a right to be.

In 2009 a young woman was killed by coyotes in Nova Scotia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Mitchell

Since I travel through NYC on my return from the A.T. I would like to know what kind of knife would be recommended for defending myself from a coyote, or even a black bear, attack and still be legal to carry on a train in NYC?

Maybe a 7 inch chef knife?

 

[jaymeister99]

In late October of 2003 I backpacking on the Appalachian Trail along the NY/NJ border. I could see the Manhattan skyline from a high area on the trail. For three days and nights I did not pass a single hiker.

One night I heard the howls of coyotes. I was a little bit scared. And now I know that I had a right to be.

In 2009 a young woman was killed by coyotes in Nova Scotia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Mitchell

Since I travel through NYC on my return from the A.T. I would like to know what kind of knife would be recommended for defending myself from a coyote, or even a black bear, attack and still be legal to carry on a train in NYC?

Maybe a 7 inch chef knife?

You can legally carry a knife over 4" through New York City. As long as you are going directly to or from your hiking trip and the knife is concealed. But make sure it makes sense. Don't pack a tanto knife or a 20" machete. Pack a decent size fixed blade knife you would actually need for the trip.

On a side note, its unlikely you would be attacked by a coyote. Coyote attacks are extremely rare. If you were to be attacked by a black bear (which is also pretty rare) a big knife won't help much.

I need to put in a disclaimer here. I am not an attorney, this is not legal advise. I would highly recommend sending a letter to the NYC DA office to get in writing what their interpretations are.

 

[charlesbjr]

If you are truly hiking, hunting, etc., then I believe even a 20" machete is ok. Where we hunt, we always have machetes on hand to clear our trails. Granted, if we are stopped, it is obvious that we are hunting or cleaning up our camp (i.e. hunting licenses, sleeping bags, etc.). We hunt way up in Northern NY and you always need a big camp knife (i.e. long single edge blade) to build a camp or pack out game.