Looking for a perfect Mirror edge

Joined
Dec 30, 2012
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28
I am pretty new to knives and sharpening, but iv'e done some research on my own. I did not want to spend too much on a sharpening system because I only own two knives (Mora Clipper, and Ontario Rat 1, both purchased this year) so far, but I do have a para military 2 pre-ordered. After doing some research I decided to go with the spyderco sharpmaker with ultra fine stones, it had great reviews and it was within my price rage. I also purchased two stropman hd strops with the white(coarse), Green(fine), Red(finer) strop compounds. Now, because the strops are double sided and I have room for one more compound, I was thinking of purchasing DMT .1 micron ( I don't even know what that means) 15000 grit Dia-paste to take it a step further. Is this a good idea? Are the Strop compounds good enough? Is there another way I could achieve a close to perfect, polished mirror edge? I will greatly appreciate any help, thank you!

Oh I forgot to mention I Just ordered both strops and shapemaker today, I have yet to receive them.
 
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Your on the right track with the diamond paste. I use that gritt as my final with 000 or 2000 . Always stay clean keep your knife rinsed after you turn it or change gritt. I start new water for each gritt and final stages
 
The Spyderco is great as long as your blades are profiled at 40* or 30* inclusive before you use them on the device. It will not profile them (well, not very easily) so they should be at those angles before use. Think of them as a maintenance device. The strop and the compounds will not sharpen your knife either. They will refine what is already done by the Spyderco if used properly. Just my thoughts on your kit. Others may prove me wrong.

Blessings,

Omar
 
The Spyderco is great as long as your blades are profiled at 40* or 30* inclusive before you use them on the device. It will not profile them (well, not very easily) so they should be at those angles before use. Think of them as a maintenance device. The strop and the compounds will not sharpen your knife either. They will refine what is already done by the Spyderco if used properly. Just my thoughts on your kit. Others may prove me wrong.

Blessings,

Omar

I think iv'e read that most blades are profiled at about 20*. It is still possible to sharpen at a 20* angle manually, but will more difficult with the sharpmaker right? lol I most likely don't know what i'm talking about since I don't know much about profiles and sharpening angles. I just have a bunch of information from bunch of sites jumbled up in my head. I need more information.
 
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I think iv'e read that most blades are profiled at about 20*. It is still possible to sharpen at a 20* angle manually, but will more difficult with the sharpmaker right? lol I most likely don't know what i'm talking about since I don't know much about profiles and sharpening angles. I just have a bunch of information from bunch of sites jumbled up in my head. I need more information.


I think you meant 40 degrees at 20 degrees per side spyderco sharpmakers sharpen at 30 and 40 degrees inclusive which means 15 and 20 degrees per side.

EDIT: My first sharpener was a sharpmaker I recommend getting an opinel no8 to practice on as the edge is so thin and really easy to sharpen that is how I learnt how to sharpen.
 
Keepitsteady, I don't know for sure, but your Rat-1 is probably factory ground closer to 50* or 25* per side. Most factory grinds are pretty obtuse, and generally need to be re-ground to the user's own need. There is no one size fits all from most factory's. They tend to grind wide so rep-profiling can be done with the least amount of steel removal. Most new blades I have looked at were around 50* +. Some say Spyderco's are more acute from the factory, but I have never looked at one from them that was new out of the box.

The good news is that once you get the blades to a 30* or a 40* bevel (whichever works best for your needs) the Sharpmaker will work wonders to keep them razor sharp for you. Good luck and don't forget to have fun above all else!

Blessings,

Omar
 
Keepitsteady, I don't know for sure, but your Rat-1 is probably factory ground closer to 50* or 25* per side. Most factory grinds are pretty obtuse, and generally need to be re-ground to the user's own need. There is no one size fits all from most factory's. They tend to grind wide so rep-profiling can be done with the least amount of steel removal. Most new blades I have looked at were around 50* +. Some say Spyderco's are more acute from the factory, but I have never looked at one from them that was new out of the box.

The good news is that once you get the blades to a 30* or a 40* bevel (whichever works best for your needs) the Sharpmaker will work wonders to keep them razor sharp for you. Good luck and don't forget to have fun above all else!

Blessings,

Omar

Thanks so much for the help. can you tell me how get a 30* or 40* bevel? and which is better?
 
Kind of hard unless you use a guided system. Since you've already got the sharpmaker, my suggestion would be to buy the diamond rods and use an aggressive (but controlled and light touch) technique to establish the bevel at the angle you want. Once the bevel is set to the right angle and your scratch pattern is established, the rest is gravy. This, however, requires general knowledge of sharpening and good technique. You can do it the "official" way, carefully going from one side to the other, but it will take a very long time, even with the diamond rods. CrimsonTideShooter has a pretty nice technique that would probably work well, so my suggestion is buy the diamond rods and practice a lot. Here's the vid; notice how he goes up and down on one side for a while before switching over. That will cut the time down significantly.

As for which angle is better, I suggest doing it the Spyderco way: reprofile to 30 degrees and microbevel at 40. Hmm... vid is not showing. Anyway, here's the direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MHe_8wTHmg
 
It's a lot of work, usually, to establish a new bevel angle and put a mirrored edge on it.

The Sharpmaker is good at maintaining a bevel that is already set at 30 degrees or 40 degrees. But it's not good at producing that bevel, especially if the factory edge is quite a bit more obtuse or uneven, which is common.

A 40-degree edge is more robust, less likely to dent or roll or chip on challenging tasks. But it doesn't cut quite as well as a 30-degree edge (15+15 degrees). The high-end steels will easily take a 30-degree edge.

A hybrid edge can be made using a 30-degree primary bevel and then adding a 40-degree microbevel. The microbevel -- which is like an edge on an edge -- adds strength to the edge. It's really easy to keep the microbevel sharp with the Sharpmaker because it requires you to remove very little metal.

The first step to sharpening your edge with the Sharpmaker is to find out what kind of edge you have on your blade. If you paint the edge with a Sharpie and make a dry pass with the stones set at 30 degrees and at 40 degrees, you'll get a rough idea of what your dealing with. Spyderco tends to use more acute factory edges on its high-end steels. Chances are that the 40-degree stones will scrape off the Sharpie ink at or very near the working edge, which means that you can use the 40-degree stones to sharpen the edge.

Chances are that the 30-degree stones will scrape off the Sharpie ink near the edge shoulders, which means it won't sharpen the edge until you reprofile the edge to 30 degrees.

You have two good choices if you want to use the 30-degree stones to sharpen your edge. 1) You can send your knife off to one of of the sharpening gurus on the forum to establish a perfect 30-degree primary bevel. Or 2) you can purchase a guided, diamond-based sharpening system like Wicked Edge or a guided system with a variety of very coarse stones, such as the Edgepro. There are cheaper guided systems, too, but make sure you can get coarse stones or diamonds to remove metal move efficiently.

The key to sharpening is to raise a burr on each side. The burr is a smear of metal that the stones push off the working edge of the side you're sharpening. The burr gets smeared to the other side. You can feel it by scraping your fingers perpendicular to the opposite side you're sharpening. The idea of sharpening is to raise and remove the burr along the entire edge of both sides. You remove the burr by reducing pressure on your stones and by moving progressively though finer and finer stones.

The mirrored edge is more work. It starts with a perfect bevel profile that you create with coarse stones. You have to be able to match this angle throughout the sharpening process. Some people with a lot of experience and skill can do this freehand. Most can't, so you'll need a guided sharpening system. The Sharpmaker is a guided system, but it's a little loosey-goosey for a mirrored edge because not many people can maintain a perfectly vertical stroke from start to finish.

To get the mirrored edge, you progressively move through finer and finer stones. You can't make too large a jump in stones, and you can't move on from each stone until you've removed all the deep scratches left by the previous stone.
 
It's a lot of work, usually, to establish a new bevel angle and put a mirrored edge on it.

The Sharpmaker is good at maintaining a bevel that is already set at 30 degrees or 40 degrees. But it's not good at producing that bevel, especially if the factory edge is quite a bit more obtuse or uneven, which is common.

A 40-degree edge is more robust, less likely to dent or roll or chip on challenging tasks. But it doesn't cut quite as well as a 30-degree edge (15+15 degrees). The high-end steels will easily take a 30-degree edge.

A hybrid edge can be made using a 30-degree primary bevel and then adding a 40-degree microbevel. The microbevel -- which is like an edge on an edge -- adds strength to the edge. It's really easy to keep the microbevel sharp with the Sharpmaker because it requires you to remove very little metal.

The first step to sharpening your edge with the Sharpmaker is to find out what kind of edge you have on your blade. If you paint the edge with a Sharpie and make a dry pass with the stones set at 30 degrees and at 40 degrees, you'll get a rough idea of what your dealing with. Spyderco tends to use more acute factory edges on its high-end steels. Chances are that the 40-degree stones will scrape off the Sharpie ink at or very near the working edge, which means that you can use the 40-degree stones to sharpen the edge.

Chances are that the 30-degree stones will scrape off the Sharpie ink near the edge shoulders, which means it won't sharpen the edge until you reprofile the edge to 30 degrees.

You have two good choices if you want to use the 30-degree stones to sharpen your edge. 1) You can send your knife off to one of of the sharpening gurus on the forum to establish a perfect 30-degree primary bevel. Or 2) you can purchase a guided, diamond-based sharpening system like Wicked Edge or a guided system with a variety of very coarse stones, such as the Edgepro. There are cheaper guided systems, too, but make sure you can get coarse stones or diamonds to remove metal move efficiently.

The key to sharpening is to raise a burr on each side. The burr is a smear of metal that the stones push off the working edge of the side you're sharpening. The burr gets smeared to the other side. You can feel it by scraping your fingers perpendicular to the opposite side you're sharpening. The idea of sharpening is to raise and remove the burr along the entire edge of both sides. You remove the burr by reducing pressure on your stones and by moving progressively though finer and finer stones.

The mirrored edge is more work. It starts with a perfect bevel profile that you create with coarse stones. You have to be able to match this angle throughout the sharpening process. Some people with a lot of experience and skill can do this freehand. Most can't, so you'll need a guided sharpening system. The Sharpmaker is a guided system, but it's a little loosey-goosey for a mirrored edge because not many people can maintain a perfectly vertical stroke from start to finish.

To get the mirrored edge, you progressively move through finer and finer stones. You can't make too large a jump in stones, and you can't move on from each stone until you've removed all the deep scratches left by the previous stone.

Thank you soo much, this has really helped. What guided system would you recommend around the same price as the shapemaker? I would be ok with spending like $30 more.
 
About the only thing near that price range would be the Lansky. And even then, I would recommend purchasing a course or extra course diamond hone to go along with the basic stone kit. They are about $15 - $20 extra for the extra hone. You would then be set up to re-profile a good hard steel blade (s30v, etc) without ruining the coarse stone in the basic kit. The diamond hone will last a long time if used with very light pressure, and taking your time, as it is very aggressive. Also you don't wont to bear down on the diamond hone or the stone hones as this will cause premature wear on them. There are lots of video's out there about the Lansky system. Again practice on some old beaters or kitchen knives to get your procedure down pat.

You might look around some thrift stores or Goodwill stores for used knives. They usually run about $1 each in my area. I have about 15 of them in my basement that I bought and used when I first got my Paper Wheels. They will all push cut phone book paper easily. Great to practice on. Good luck and success in your endeavor. What ever you finally get, it will be an investment in your new hobby, and provide you with endless hours of enjoyment.

Blessings,

Omar
 
Ok I think i'm going to get the lansky delux diamond sharpening system With extra coarse, coarse, medium, and fine stones. I see the lansky has 17, 20, 25, 30 degree angle sharpening options. To get my blades to 30 degree bevel, with a 40 degree micro bevel will I first need to choose the 17 degree angle on the system because 17+17 is 34 or do I choose the 30 degree angle? lol this is kind of confusing but I'm starting to understand. I also took a look at the DMT aligner pro kit.
 
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That should work. Have no experience with one, but same principle as with the Lansky systems. There are some negative feedback on one of the big online retail stores about the plastic holder. Of course some people would break a good hammer if given the opportunity, so I take some of those remarks with a grain of salt. (Makes them easier to swallow that way:D) There are several users around here that have and use the DMT Aligner kit.

Blessings,

Omar
 
I am still confused about the angles. I'm going to order the lansky system today and it has 17, 20, 25, 30 sharpening angles. Lets say I try to put a 30 degree primary bevel with a 40 degree micro bevel. On the lansky system, which angle would I start with and which angle would I finish with? And i'm guess you refine the edge with higher grits using the finishing angle, correct?
 
I am still confused about the angles. I'm going to order the lansky system today and it has 17, 20, 25, 30 sharpening angles. Lets say I try to put a 30 degree primary bevel with a 40 degree micro bevel. On the lansky system, which angle would I start with and which angle would I finish with? And i'm guess you refine the edge with higher grits using the finishing angle, correct?

The angle 'settings' indicated on the Lansky clamp are only accurate as measured at the immediate front edge of the clamp. In other words, the '17' setting is only 17° (per side) when measured at the front edge of the clamp; same applies for the other settings. A blade edge which extends further out from the front edge (as all blades will, in order for the hones to reach them), will sharpen up at an angle somewhat less than the marked setting. Based on a few I've sharpened and calculated the angles for, a blade edge which is ~5/8" in front of the clamp's front edge will sharpen at close to ~15°/side, when using the '17' setting. So, if your knife's blade is a relatively common size, and wide enough to clamp so that you have ~1/2" - 3/4" of blade extending beyond the front of the clamp, you should be able to get in the ballpark of a 30° inclusive angle (or maybe a little less) by using the '17' setting on the clamp.

The only way to guarantee getting close to the expected angle, is to either measure it, or calculate the angle using trig functions based on dimensions measured with the knife set up in the clamp.


David
 
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