Looking for others' interpretations of LA knife laws?

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Blah357

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Aug 21, 2015
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I used to carry a RAT 1, but then I did some research before getting my first high-end folder and found out that I wasn't supposed to be carrying it without concealing it because it has a blade over 3". I carry a Mini Grip right now, and I've always had my eye on a Benchmade 940. However, LA knife laws state that folders with blades having a length of 3 inches or longer would have to be carried completely concealed (no pocket clip, which I can't stand). However, upon closer inspection of municipal code 55.10, it appears that the word "concealed" is never used, nor is "openly carried," which are both somewhat clearly defined in federal laws. However, "plain view" is not defined anywhere. To me, "plain view" means easily visible, so having it clipped in a pocket wouldn't be in "plain view," especially if my shirt is sometimes covering it. I figured it would be better to get some input on what "plain view" is defined as, and how I would be able to put up a good legal defense if needed, before I go back to carrying blades over 3".

Below is municipal code 55.10:

(a) As used in this section, the term knife or dagger shall include any knife, dirk or dagger having a blade 3 inches or more in length, any ice pick or similar sharp tool, any straight edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle

(b) No person shall wear or carry in plain view any knife or dagger upon any public street or other public place or in any place open to the public

(c) The prohibitions of this section shall not apply where a person is wearing or carrying a knife or dagger for use in a lawful occupation, for lawful recreational purposes, or as a recognized religious practice, or while the person is traveling to or returning from participation in such activity

EDIT: I did some more research and found out about the "Plain View Doctrine," which allows officers to conduct a search and seizure without a warrant if they see some sort of contraband (such as a firearm or drugs in the car of motorist stopped for speeding). However, a knife with a blade length of over 3" doesn't necessarily count as contraband, as such blades aren't outlawed, but must not be carried in plain view. Any idea whether or not a folder with a blade over 3" carried with a deep pocket clip would be probable cause for this type of unwarranted search and seizure? Also, should the fourth amendment protect one from an unwarranted search and seizure? The "Plain View Doctrine" may say no, but if an officer can't even tell if the item is a knife (deep pocket), or if they can't tell the blade length by looking at the pocket clip (which they shouldn't be able too), is an unwarranted search still justified under the doctrine?
 
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There isn't really any firmly established case law in CA the declares whether a pocket clip is concealed or not. It's going to be situational and depend on the officer's opinion.

Generally speaking cops are not going around looking for pocket clips (except in New York City where they get pay bonuses for knife arrests). They have better things to do. Every single piece of case law I have found involving knife charges started with the defendant doing something stupid to attract police attention. Most of the time this behavior is itself a more serious crime, and other times it's simply anti-social and suspicious. In all these cases, the knife was incidental and largely used as a "excuse charge" when hard evidence of another crime isn't apparent, even if obvious by inference.

Regarding the 4th Amendment, you need to know it has many exceptions. One of the most overlooked is consent. If a cop asks if he can search you, and you say yes, you have just waived your 4th Amendment rights and are on the hook for anything he finds. This is a surprisingly common thing, because your average joe is afraid refusal makes him look guilty. Clever cops are counting on that fallacy. Don't be a sucker. Another exception is a Terry Stop, named after the Terry v Ohio case. It means if police reasonably suspect you have committed a crime and have reasonable and articulable suspicion that you're armed, they can search you for weapons. Though again, you have to have done something at least marginally stupid to get to that point.

I personally dislike pocket clips even though my state permits me to carry any folder however I wish. They chew through my pants and tend to "show my hand" to people around me, both "sheeple" and criminals. When I was a teen, I used to carry a CRKT clipped to my pocket for a long time until some punk came up behind me and removed it before I could react. I was fortunate at the time that it was a Michael Walker BladeLock, which lock closed and won't open unless you know the trick, and so I was able to physically subdue him while he fumbled with it trying to figure out why it wouldn't open.
 
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Here's my perspective-

First, I've lived in California (San Diego) for the past 46 years. I've also been through the California criminal justice system as a defendant on a weapons offense (and subsequently went to prison). I've had several defense attorney's in my employment, some better than others.

My current attorney (a good one) has counseled me at length on any knife laws that might apply to me. And I have paid close attention to his counsel because as a convicted felon with one "strike" against me I would face more prison time if I were convicted of another weapons offense.

Here is some general advice my current attorney has given me over the years-

1. Don't apply your definitions and your personal rationality to the law. The cops, prosecutor, District Attorney, judges, and jurors are not obligated to agree with or follow your interpretations of the law. And chances are they won't. Chances are they will interpret the law in a way that is least favorable to you.

2. Never underestimate the possibility of being stopped and searched by a cop. It might never happen, but then again, it might. Every cop is different with their own personality, motives, and attitude. Cross paths with the wrong cop on the wrong day and they might find a reason to search you.

3. Never underestimate a cops willingness to commit perjury and lie on the stand. It happens all the time. Little "white" lies intended to support an illegal search and bolster an arrest.

4. Never underestimate a cops willingness to arrest you if they do in fact catch you violating the letter of the law. And understand that cops will often arrest people and leave it to the prosecutors and judges to determine if you did in fact break the law.

5. When the law is vague, when you are not absolutely certain about what it says- err on the side of caution and take the steps necessary to stay out of jail and avoid screwing up your life. Never test the law.

And here's how my attorney advised me specifically regarding traveling to Los Angeles-

1. If you do not have a legitimate reason for carrying a visible knife with a blade 3" or longer (like work, which is an exemption in LA law), carry your folder completely concealed, with no part of the knife visible. No pocket clips, no belt sheaths, etc.

2. If you are going to carry a folder with a blade 3" or longer concealed in your pocket, remove the pocket clip so that no cop can lie and say you had it clipped to your pocket.

And that's the advice I follow. Many cops might not take any interest in a visible pocket clip, but it only takes one. And if the clip is attached to a knife with a blade 3" or longer, and if they decide to use that visible clip as a reason to arrest you, you will regret that you were carrying it is such a manner.

Never test the law. You have a lot more to lose than you have to gain.
 
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From what I understand, the 2 entities have nearly identical laws - 1 just says Los Angeles County and the other says City of Los Angeles.
 
I've talked to Deputies that have told me folders of any size blade are fine just as long as they are manuals. Then again they enforce law not interpret it.
Having said that, I've never had a problem.
 
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