Looking for some good Damascus References

lamontjb

lamontjb

Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Messages
105
Hello,

About to finish my hydraulic press so that I can venture into Damascus making but I am having some trouble finding good references showing how to make various patterns. I purchased a book called "The pattern welded blade" but it has yet to arrive and have looked at some DVDs, but wasn't sure what is the best reference. Can anyone point me to some good references showing how to make different patterns of damascus? Any help would be greatly apprieciated.
 
Email me your phone # and a good time to call and I can be of some help.
Check out my website as my reference.
Del
 
Ed Caffrey has a DVD on damascus that's worth looking into. I've watched it once and will again several times when I get around to making damascus.

--nathan
 
I hope you post some of the references you get via word of mouth. There are lots of us who would love to know too.
 
The Hrisoulas book you've ordered is a very good starting point. Also, Delbert is a great resource. I will be putting a bunch of this info up on my website as time progresses, but I'm still working on it. I'll try to start getting some specific pattern recipes up there shortly.

What you should probably be concentrating on right now if you're just starting out with pattern welding is general procedures. Make sure your prep work is good, make sure your welds are sound, make sure you get a working rhythm going in your shop. Take a few minutes and read ove the little bit of info I have posted on the site above. Follow the suggestions for preparation and welding and you'll save yourself a lot of heartache.

Start first with a simple straight laminate or random billet. Set your first weld and draw it out some. Cut an end off, polish it and etch it to check your welds. Go to 200-300 layers, cutting a test piece off the end after each re-weld, forge out a bar, grind it flat and etch it to see what you got. There will be PLENTY of time to worry about pattern (trust me...you're likely to not be able to STOP being concerned with it). For now concentrate on some of the basic operations until you get those down.

The great thing about damascus is that unless you screw up a weld, it almost always looks cool.

-d
 
Pattern welding is about imagination more than anything. The first step is to learn how to weld up simple patterns and become good at that. There is MUCH more to it than just putting a billet in the press and "squashing" it. Steel choices become critical. The more similar the steels are in a damascus billet, the greater the chances for success.

The most common mistake that folks make when starting out with a press is trying to compress the steel too much. Generally I recommend not taking more than a 1/8" to 1/4" "bite" at a time when using a press. It also helps to learn what I call "Thinking in the 4th dimension"(as it relates to forging).... train yourself to imagine whats going on inside the billet when you compress/hammer the exterior. This type of thinking will also help a great deal later on when you work on more complex patterns. It may not mean much right now, but as you gain experience, you will find that a press works a billet differently than a hammer. A press forges/moves material from the inside out, and a hammer moves material from the outside in. Because press dies tend to cool the billet surface that they contact, a billet will compress more/differently inside than it does in on the exterior.....a hammer works just the opposite.

Something that helped me a great deal was a book I ran across at the local Barnes & Knobles called "The New Clay". Its about making beads from clay, but the same principles can be applied to hot steel. It revolutionized the way I thought about making damascus, and took me down a whole new path....especially concerning making Mosaic.

Concentrate on making good straight laminates first. Once you have that down, then start adding in twists or other mechanical manipulations, and gradually, as you understand things, you can go more complex. Trying to jump right into complex mosaics, without fully understanding the basics is just unnecessary frustration. As with anything worth doing, its worth doing right, and there is a learning curve.
 
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Thanks for the info Ed I am interested in checking out that book sounds like it is a good read. Thanks to everyone else for the info and suggestions.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
... Because press dies tend to cool the billet surface that they contact, a billet will compress more/differently inside than it does in on the exterior.....a hammer works just the opposite...
Click to expand...

I disagree a little bit on that. I think how a hammer works steel varies greatly; in my opinion it depends on the hammer size, hammer to anvil ratio, steel heat, steel to hammer weight, and the shape of the piece of steel being worked. Although my experience in limited I've found that my #150 fairbanks (#185 with the die) tends to bulge the center of a billet out like you would expect with a press. This leads me to believe that it is compressing the center more than the outside of the billet. :confused: Am i just insane? :confused:

-Dan
 
Dan Seaver said:
I disagree a little bit on that. I think how a hammer works steel varies greatly; in my opinion it depends on the hammer size, hammer to anvil ratio, steel heat, steel to hammer weight, and the shape of the piece of steel being worked. Although my experience in limited I've found that my #150 fairbanks (#185 with the die) tends to bulge the center of a billet out like you would expect with a press. This leads me to believe that it is compressing the center more than the outside of the billet. :confused: Am i just insane? :confused:

-Dan
Click to expand...

Nope, you're not insane Dan. The harder you hit the more you're going to distort the entire workpiece. That said, there is always a difference between a hammer and a press. A BIG hammer will do some things similar to a press, but the mechanisms at work are very different. The cooling of the outside of a billet against press dies is a real thing and does reduce the movement at those outside edges. With a smaller hammer you get most of the distortion at the contact points (top and bottom die) and so you tend to see more movement on the outside edges of the billet. A more powerful percussive blow (as from a bigger hammer) will distort the center of a billet more based on sheer force. From what I've seen, and conversations I've had, this only begins to be a consideration when working with much larger hammers of 150# or bigger. That said, I believe your'e right on track with the anvil:ram ratio. that makes a LOT more difference than I think people realize.

-d
 
I want to thank everyone for pointing me in the right direction. I just got off the phone with Delbert who has provided me with plenty of info to get me started. Now I'm wishing my press was done so I could use all that wealth of info right now, but more importantly, before I forget.

I am including a picture of the press that I am building (some of you may have already seen it in another forum). I am using a 7.5HP electric motor @ 3450 rpm, 16GPM pump, and 5 inch bore cylinder. Part of me wanted to build this for the sake of saying I built it (as opposed to just buying it). However, the cost of building was a bit more than I orginally planned. None the less, I just recieved the last few pieces I need to build the slide and hopefully it will be operational this week. Wish me luck!
 

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Thanks Deker, Del and Ed for the good info here and on your sites!

In an effort to understand this stuff a bit more, it sounds like making damascus breaks down into a few basic categories.

  1. Materials: steel selection
  2. Equipment: primarily the press (and its dies) and/or power hammer, and the forge (w/ temp control)
  3. Methods: metal prep, heating, forge welding and drawing, etc
  4. "Recipes": layer thicknesses and arrangment and count, billet size, draw size, manipulations (twisting, deforming, etc)
  5. Skillsets: mastering straight forge welding the billet, steady pace and rhythm, feel for steel, progress slowly based on successes
I've been searching through the threads and web on and off for a while now for info on making damascus. It is somewhat limited that's for sure. I guess, I'll just have to DO to really start understanding this stuff in my bones.

All the best, Phil
 
To reiterate Ed and Rob......
The skill you need to master is welding. Once you can make seamless laminations repeatedly, then you are ready to pattern those layers. Many try to move on to the patterns too quickly.

Practice making 200-300 layer billets until the process seems second nature. Don't worry about wasting steel. That stack of billets will be the material for the patterning, once you are ready to move on to modification of the layers.

I like Rob's idea of checking each weld while learning. Slicing off a small piece of the billet each fold sounds like a good check.

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
I like Rob's idea of checking each weld while learning. Slicing off a small piece of the billet each fold sounds like a good check.
Click to expand...

Drill a hole, heat treat, polish and etch and you have some nice keychains for gifts too ;)

-d
 
Farmer Phil said:
Thanks Deker, Del and Ed for the good info here and on your sites!

In an effort to understand this stuff a bit more, it sounds like making damascus breaks down into a few basic categories.

  1. Materials: steel selection
  2. Equipment: primarily the press (and its dies) and/or power hammer, and the forge (w/ temp control)
  3. Methods: metal prep, heating, forge welding and drawing, etc
  4. "Recipes": layer thicknesses and arrangment and count, billet size, draw size, manipulations (twisting, deforming, etc)
  5. Skillsets: mastering straight forge welding the billet, steady pace and rhythm, feel for steel, progress slowly based on successes
I've been searching through the threads and web on and off for a while now for info on making damascus. It is somewhat limited that's for sure. I guess, I'll just have to DO to really start understanding this stuff in my bones.

All the best, Phil
Click to expand...


Phil,
Yes you have the idea.
I covered with Lamont the very basics of forgewelding and patterning.
The same offer applies to you, send me an email with your phone # and a good time to call and I will.
The basic reason for this is that I am a snail-typist but a motormouth. If I could type as fast as I talk It would sound like a mini-gun in my office here.
Del
 
Mr. Lamont:

Now I do not want to upset the applecart as they say, but folks have been pattern welding for about 1700 years and during what I cann the "Golden Age of Pattern Welding"..the Migrationary Period...there were no presses, a few water powered hammers but the vast majoritry of the work was done by hand, without much in the ways of tools, other than a forge, some sort of anvil, a hammer or two and some tongs.

The book you purchased, you made a mistake on. Unless you already know how to make a decent knife, you will be way over your head. Yes, that book will show you how, and walk you through some pretty eleaborate patterns, but if your knifemaking/bladesmithing skills are not already there... You are going to make a 20$$ knife out of a 500$$ piece of steel...

If you want to start on the road to pattern welding../start out with a good quality steel (not stainless, not galvanized) cabvle and learn to weld that. I use it as a teaching too to the very few I take as students.

I do not want to come across as arrogant or anything, and well, I have been doing this for 40 years, I have seen folks come and go...and I have seen far to many that held such promise get frustrated by going too fast too soon and just walk away. I do not want to see that happen to you...

Do as you wish, but as it was suggexted before..learn to weld...I mean learn to weld..to make 100% solid welds...learn to spot problems before they start and how to prevent them and solve them.

I know I am a newbie here....and I am not some "big name maker"..(well maybe to some I might be..but not really)...I am just me, but I have been doing this a very long time.

Take a whole lot of notes for future reference...read as much as you can and try it...Now what works for one person may not work as well for another..Everyone has different work habits and that plays a major part...but the basics are just that..the basics and as long as you fulfill those you should be OK...The rest is up to the individual smith.

So that's my advice...unasked for so take it as you see it's worth...Like I said I am just a nobody working all alone here in Southern Nevada...

NVHammerHead

Just a word of free advise...
 
NVhammerhead,
Very similar advice I gave to Lamont, Except for the cable.
It is good to learn on, however flatstock is easier yet.
I have to admit that The pattern welded blade was a diappointment for me as well. Too much misinformation and not enough good information.
Del

Also,
I have been studying some of the shotgun barrells made in damascus during the past couple hundred years. Some of the patterns are amazing and fun to recreate. Check it out.
 
Mr. Ealy:

Misinformatgion as in what in particular?? I have been using the same basic techniques and they work...at least for me....Yeah, there are easier ways to do some of the things but in that book it is layed out pretty well in layman's terms..

Just curious...

MVHammerHead
 
Identifying high and low carbon as color different steels when the carbon content is not the color determinate element. It is important, especially for knife steels, but it is not the element most responsible for color differences in steel.
This is such a misrepresentation of the actual facts that if it were taken in religious context it would be considered heresy.
Del
 
Thanks for that kind offer Del. I sure enjoy your website! I'll drop you a line, although being on vacation with my family, I'm a bit of a mess when it comes to knowing anything about what's happening next and when a good time might be.

All the best, Phil
 
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