If you care about edge performance, edge holding, stick with Norris and Damasteel.
Norris regular stuff can be heat treated to about Rc55-57 if done just right, and so makes a good but not great blade (just looks great).
Norris San Mai can perform better than his regular stuff, just don't expect a 440V core to perform up to a pure 440V blade.
(The culprit in dilluting the performnace of a pure steel when made into damascus is decarburization...a treatise unto itself. )
Mike may also be doing a 420V core now. I have two of his San Mai blades, 440V.
One point on these: ask for a very skinny core, and have Kit ask Mike for a very straight piece so that the core stays centered even after forging (stuff is wavy, core moves around).
Kit hollow grinds... but he can and does usually use a pretty big wheel (10"?). That helps. Flat grinding is even better... reason being that if you deep hollow grind, you expose lots of the core and it etches gray, and so only top half of the blade looks like damascus, the bottom half is dull gray. The knife on the Stamascus page that gives you an idea of what the San Mai comes out looking like is the "Straight Knives - Page 1, Model #4". Unless you prefer that look of course. Just ask Kit to use the biggest wheel he's got if you don't liek that look, or skip San Mai.
The Damasteel is a powder metallurgy steel, made from a European version of ATS-34 and of a clone of 12c27 (from memory). Some report that, properly heat treated, this stuff approaches ATS-34 in performance. I have a Darrel Ralph Damasteel blade that is fine edge holding, and takes a good toothy shavin' edge.
Damasteel sometimes comes out watery...not very defined between the layers, not crisp like Norris stuff and Devin's stuff. This could be the etchant or etching technique, could just be characteristic of the powder metallurgy technique, I'm not sure yet.
Devin's stuff comes in more patterns, you may find some of them more interesting, but his stainless will underperform Norris' and Damasteel. It's all in the mix of what he uses (AEB-H & 304ss, 304 doesn't harden). Devin's ladder is very precise...almost too much so, too mechanistic. To each his own though.
Norris exceeds Thomas' level of performance by adding D2 to AEB-H (or AEB-L) and 304ss.
Devin's carbon steel damascus performs like a good carbon steel, very well aside from corrosion.
Here is a post I harvested a while back that gets into a bit of detail, in case it's of interest. Just note that Devin's home page says he uses or perhaps has since switched to AEB-L where Arthur refers to AEB-H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BeowulftheGeat
Arthur D. Washburn
ADW Custom Knives
From
ioche, Nevada USA
posted 08-13-2000 02:18 PM
As a knife maker that works almost exclusively in damascus and being production manager for "Devin Thomas Damascus" I have considerable experience with stainless damascus.
Devin Thomas and Mike Norris use about the same mix in their standard stainless mixes, AEB-H (a swedish scalpel steel) and 304 (non hardening stainless steel). Devin also uses a 440C and 304 mix for some of the exotic patterns. Mike adds D-2 (not actually a true stainless but a tool steel) to bring up the carbon count. IMHO this is not nessasay as long as the carbon count is above 6 points (0.6%) the steel should obtain optimum hardness when heat treated properly. The AEB-H has enough carbon content to keep the mix over 6 points.
Devin and Mike also use about the same process to weld their steels. This being said I can tell you two things:
1. There are no welding flaws or scale inclusions
2. The steels are capable of getting at least 55 on the rockwell scale and reaching 57 on occasion when heat treated properly.
For these mixes of stainless the process of heat treating differs only in the temp when compared to carbon steels. The heat treat is 1975 degrees for ten min quench in oil. Temper at 350 for 1 hour twice, then sub zero quench can be used. I know the guys at Crucible say it does nothing but I routinely gain 1 point on the rockwell scale after a sub zero quench so I will continue to recommend it. [Crucible steels may well differ in their response to sub zero quench, but many of the somewhat simpler alloys like ATS-34 and D2 and 440C do benefit - RDA]
IMHO some of the bad rap that stainless damascus has received is due to inexperienced knife makers trying to do their own heat treat. I get calls where makers have received improper information on heat treating and are mad at me because they ruined the steel. (I haven't figured out why they should be mad at me but that's for another thread).
I can tell you that the reason there are not many makers of stainless damascus is it is very labor intensive to forge. It takes about twice as long to forge a 12 inch bar of stainless as it does to do a 12 inch bar of carbon. You are correct in stating that there are also some tech skills involved that are differant from carbons but to state them would be giving away trade secrets.
I routinely use stainless damascus for every day cutting chores and the edge holding and cutting ability are very good. Its also easy to sharpen and touch up the edge. I have made custom kitchen knives for people and they love the stainless. I have also done destructive tests on it and examined the grain structures of the stainless. It is very refined and small as it should be. It is also very stain resistant and thats the key word resistant. As there are no true stainless steels but there are Stain Resistant Steels. I believe the term "Stainless Steel" was actually a trade mark at one time and still may be. I cut all sorts of fruits and veggies with my stainless damascus and as long as I clean them I have no trouble. My wife recently washed my "Bill Ankrom" folder with a Devin Thomas Stainless blade and it had no discoloration at all. She also uses a custom stainless damascus paring knife at work that I made for her. She prefers it to all the other knives at work and her co-workers are jealous cause she won't share, lol.
All that being said, Larry if you want the best edge holding damascus GET CARBON DAMASCUS. Nothing holds an edge better than high carbon steels IMHO. If you want a very good edge holding damascus that needs very little maintenace buy something made with stainless damascus. Its easy to sharpen and looks good. Chris Reeve (Chris Reeve Knives), Ernest Emerson (Emerson Knives), Tony Marfione (Micro Tech), William Henry Knives and Buck are just a few of the production companies that regularly buy our stuff for thier custom divisions.
I hope this disertaion helps
Arthur D. Washburn
ADW Custom Knives
AKA Beowulf in bladeforums.com chat.
[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 05-10-2001).]
