Looking for the answers

peter nap

peter nap

Joined
Nov 27, 1999
Messages
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I decided I wanted to build a very early American Rifleman's knife this time.
I did a little research and emailed a picture to Chuck at Wild Rose Trading for his opinion.
As usual, Chuck had a better idea and he emailed me a picture of something very close to what I was looking for.

I took the picture below:
wild%20rose%20jamestoen%20knife.jpg


and scaled it to a 16" blade. It was a little larger than what I wanted so I backed up an inch.
From the picture it's hard to tell if it's a stick tang with a little handle left or a full tang.

I wanted a full tang so I started looking for examples with a full tang. The larger knives like these were often made from broken swords so this is where I looked.

Scaled, the blade was around 1.5" That would be too large for a Hanger so I started looking at Horseman sabers.

Most English sabers had a stick tang so I looked for American made sabers.

No luck but I did find a cut up cutlass that fit the bill. So I had the style of handle. Now what wood because they didn't list the wood.

I assumed it would either be Mahogany, Teak or Live Oak since it would have been rebuilt on the ship. ( lots of assuming here)

So I decided to use the antique Teak I had.

The rivets are easy. Iron.

I am not using epoxy on this one because I really want to try for a reproduction. I am using suede spacers and Cutlers Resin ala Max the Knife.

I'm about 50 % finished now and I may stay home Saturday (I'm going Kayaking Sunday no matter what) and see how far I can get!
 
I wonder what the chemical composition of that blade metal is? Jamestown? Aren't we talking 17th century?
 
They only used the best in Jamestown, Rodger. It has to be
5160
:D :D :D
.................... :D :D

That is unless they were short of car springs as is the case with this one. Then they used M2! :o
 
I wonder what the chemical composition of that blade metal is? Jamestown? Aren't we talking 17th century?
Click to expand...
1607 - The steel would most likely have been "blister steel" - the main steel until 1693 when shear steel, an improved blister steel - basically pattern welded blister steel - was first produced.
"Blister steel: Steel formed by roasting bar iron in contact with carbon in a cementing furnace. Very briefly, the cementation process involves placing alternating layers of iron bars and charcoal into refractory chests, which are subsequently sealed, or cemented, closed. This prevents the charcoal from igniting. The chests sit in a large furnace, which is then fired for a period of a week to ten days. The firing is monitored to maintain a temperature below the melting point of the iron bars, while carbon from the charcoal diffuses into the iron bars. These bars tend to have a blistered, or scaled, appearance when they emerge from the process - hence the term, blister steel."
There's not much info on the size of the bars, but what littel I have been able to extrapolate from the bars were most likely 3/8" x 3/8" x 3' long. Other sources intimate 3/8" x 3/4" x 3'.

Peter they are both full-tanged with forged bolsters. Not sure if teak would have been used much at that time since it came from SE Asia and the English weren't much into that area until after the mid-17th century - I would go more for English Oak which was the major English ship wood of the early-17th century. (shipbuilding is the main reason there aren't a lot of huge forests left in England)
 
I was just looking at that book yesterday, the one that picture came from.

The blades would be listed as integrals today. They are full tang with forged integral bolsters. These blades were dug up and all you see is what's left of the steel.

While there were many beautiful knives back then, there were also many UGLY knives that looked clunky with no flow to them. Personally I like the look of these two.

Nick

ps- Yea, I think there was a shortage of car springs back then with the huge automotive industry booming in Jamestown ;)
 
Peter - does this mean there is also a matchlock or Wheelock in the works
Wheelock Chuck! :p I've gotta see if I can come close to Bump!

Mark...I hate to admit this but I gave the thing away before I had a chance to take a decent picture. Give me a few seconds and I'll post the picture I did take!
 
Chuck, is there info you are aware of as to the carbon content of the blister steel? At least now we (I) know it is a steel.

Thanks.

RL
 
Roger the carbon content varied considerably based on the info available anywhere from .30-.90. Based on metallurgical tests of extant items most research I've seen suggests that when recreating the steel of the period 1070 or 1080 is the closest.
The variability is one reason that shear steel and crucible aka cast steel became the steels to use for cutlery.

Shear steel is produced by cutting selected bars of blister steel into shorter lengths (ca. 18"), fastening them into bundles using wire, then hot forging them (presumably through the use of tilt hammers) into an ingot. This results in some hammer refining and a flexible steel particularly well suited for certain kinds of cutlery work.

"Shear Steel - Before the development of Crucible Steel, Blister Steel was forged by repeated folding and forge welding to mix the areas of high and low carbon steel. Shear Steel was the lowest quality generally created and further folding and welding created Double Shear Steel. Long regarded as ideal for blades and cutting edges, primarily because the slag trapped within the steel lead to a serrated edge without it being purposely formed.
Although this steel was used to make razors, files, knives and swords, the process was extremely laborious and no more than 200 tons a year were produced in Sheffield in this way.

Benjamin Huntsman's invention of the crucible steel process in the 1760's changed all of that. He was the first person to cast steel bars (they took blister steel and melted it in a crucuble and then cast the ingots), producing tougher, high-quality steel in large quantities.
In 1846, the French metallurgist Monsieur le Play wrote of Huntsman: 'His memorable discovery advanced the steel manufactures of Sheffield to the first rank, and powerfully contributed to the establishment of the industrial and commercial supremacy of Great Britain.' Within 100 years, Sheffield was producing 20,000 tons of crucible steel per year a staggering 40% of total European steel production at this time.
At first, Sheffield cutlers refused to work with crucible steel because it was much harder than they were used to. French cutlers had no such reservations, providing a ready market for the new steel and producing higher-quality cutlery that began to challenge Sheffield's dominance. When the British government refused the Sheffield cutlers' demand that Huntsman's exports should be banned, the cutlers were forced to start using his steel for their own products.
 
Rodger, Chuck gave you more information than I ever could. The makeup of the steel is beyond me in the pre Revolution era. I do know that in the production of the blades they were being turned out in great numbers using water powered equipment many years prior to the Revolution.
If memory serves me correctly, England tried to take the sword business by importing several families of Solingen's in the middle 1600's.

France did the same thing in the middle 1700's. Both enterprises had fairly limited success but did spawn a domestic interest in sword making that eventually flourished,

What does this have to do with this knife and steel.......Well, It is supposed to represent the labor of American Blacksmith Knife making. Steel was re used and recycled. Broken swords from Spain became new knives in America. I've seen brass tommy hawks with a steel edge riveted on.

The steel sword used could have come from Spain, Germany, England, France or lord knows where.

I have seen pictures of knives made from the tip of a Scythe and I have seen sword blades made from Wrought iron.

Scrounging is not new.
 
Wild Rose said:
At first, Sheffield cutlers refused to work with crucible steel because it was much harder than they were used to. French cutlers had no such reservations, providing a ready market for the new steel and producing higher-quality cutlery that began to challenge Sheffield's dominance. When the British government refused the Sheffield cutlers' demand that Huntsman's exports should be banned, the cutlers were forced to start using his steel for their own products.
Click to expand...

Sounds a little familiar, even today.

Gosh Chuck, It amazes me the advancement they had that far back in time. Its really something how people figure out or evolve processes that accomplish such remarkable things without the testing equipment we are used to having available.

Thanks for that great info.

Roger
 
Roger - remember patten welded and Wootz steel goes way back in time. The Vikings and even their forefathers were highly accomplished bladesmiths using a variety of methods including San Mai style sandwiched blades and some absolutely gorgeous pattern welded pieces. Much of the steel was smelted directly from bog iron and there are several makers today who are using/experimenting with these same methods.
The development of Wootz is a story in itself and recent finds in Turkey and Northern India have pushed the dates farther back than previously known.
 
It just amazes me that the understanding that correct amounts of carbon turns iron into steel was learned that far back. What is equally amazing is how long it took our very own industrial revolution to embrace it.

RL
 
Roger - the biggest problem I believe was in teh quantity of steel available - up until the Bessmer (blast furnace) Process was instituted in the 1860's only about 20,000 lbs of steel was commercially available. The Bessemer Process increased that 10 fold to over 200K lbs per year.

On the other hand wrought iron and cast iron were continued in use because of certain properties they had that steel didn't - wrought iron for instance is highly rust resistant compared to steel.
 
Anyhow, from your post several posts above it looks like Peter's 5160 is just about right as far as carbon content goes.

Thanks Chuck for a very educating evenig. I remain amazed at how old steel is to us. My hat is off to those who whether mistakenly or intentionally discovered it and how to begin making it.

RL
 
My hat is off to those who whether mistakenly or intentionally discovered it and how to begin making it.

Rodger, you see me make fun of modern technology from time to time. This is one of the reasons. Just because we have learned to make electrons bounce around in CRT's we somehow like to think we are superior to our ancestors.

If we had taken the time to preserve the knowledge from the past, we would be a truly advanced civilization!
 
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