Love my Persistence by some questions

L

LawyerSam

Joined
Jun 25, 2010
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270
Well, I have had, until now, just two $5 cheap blades. One fully serrated, plastic handle, the other a heavy (I am guessing aluminum) handle with partially serrated blade. Each is 3.5 inches.

I have handled Delicas, Enduras, some Kershaws (Scallion, Blackout, Leek, Shallot, Chive) and a couple of Benchmades (Mini Griptilian, full sized Grip, Presidio, Mini Ambush). Loved the Delica and the Mini Grip, but I think part of the Mini Grip's allure is the locking system.

So, been plaing with the Persistence I got. Love the thumbhole and been trying to get proficient at onehanded quick opening and closing.

Saw a thread in the Spyderco forum about what knife is the best slicer. Got me to thinking, I know nothing about steels and blades. So I have some questions

1) Some prefer G-10 scales to the FFN and the Peristence has them. What makes G-10 Preferable? I know it seems heavy compared to the Mini Grip

2) I know that the steel is not the best, and I expected super, duper sharp and it may be, but running my thumb against it lightly, I did not get cut. So, what makes the steel in the Delica better?

Now if say my jump up from the $5 Chinese cheapy to the Persistence is a factor of 4 times better (that is the Persistence is 4 times the quality of knife that the Cheapy is, let's say), then how big a jump is it from say the Persistence to the Delica?

I am thinking that perhaps rather than try to find a Mini Grip, I might just be better off going for a Delica. Or just slowing down and enjoying my Persistence a bit and actually using it and seeing if I can abuse it to see what I want a knife to do.
 
Yes, I really wondered about how sharp an edge needs to be to cut you when running your thumb along the edge. My ZDP Endura can cut a single strand of hair when it's run along the edge but it still doesn't cut me when I run my thumb along the edge. I do have micro cuts after but not something that bleeds. I also know it's sharper after I sharpened it on the UF Sharpmaker rods but when I do the "three finger test" the edge seems less aggressive than, say one sharpened with the medium stones.
 
I don't like G10 as much as FRN. G10 is nice and all, but I can beat the hell out of FRN and not give a crap, and it doesn't shred the hell out of my pockets. When I put on and take off my G10 knife from my pocket, I cringe every time because I hear the sound of sandpaper rubbing against my pants.

The steel type doesn't have a whole lot to do with how sharp the knife is. If it's not sharp, then whoever sharpened it probably didn't do a good job.
 
LawyerSam said:
1) ... What makes G-10 Preferable?

2) ... So, what makes the steel in the Delica better?
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1) I've often wondered this myself -- what the big deal is about G10. Maybe it's tougher than many plastics? I don't know for sure. It probably feels better to the touch than many plastics, though, and that likely has a lot to do with why people favor it.

EDIT: DISREGARD THIS NEXT STATEMENT -- It is incorrect, and sorry for the confusion. See robot37's post below for a good comparison of the steels in question.
2) The VG10 steel of the Delica is a layered steel, with outer layers comprised of softer stainless steel for toughness and rust resistance, and a harder carbon steel core for superior edge holding. So in theory, it's both tougher and holds an edge longer than the Persistence's steel.

LawyerSam said:
...Or just slowing down and enjoying my Persistence a bit and actually using it ....
Click to expand...

Great idea. :)
 
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mz9393 said:
2) The VG10 steel of the Delica is a layered steel, with outer layers comprised of softer stainless steel for toughness and rust resistance, and a harder carbon steel core for superior edge holding. So in theory, it's both tougher and holds an edge longer than the Persistence's steel.
Click to expand...

What? I think you're getting VG-10 confused with the VG-10 based damascus used in other knives (like Shun).
 
Or the ZDP perhaps.

Either way, you will learn to find how much better the Delica is, whether it is immediately obvious or not.

I had a Byrd Meadowlark Rescue and then later bought my beloved Saver Salt. The Saver Salt did not blow me away at 4x the cost, but it's painful to go back to my Meadowlark after feeling the difference in FRN quality. Yeah, I said it, FRN quality. :D
 
First of all I love both my tenacious and persistence. I generally like G10 better than FRN because it feels better in my hand. However, IMHO, the G10 of both the tenacious and persistence are not up to the standards of the G10 in say the manix or the military. In my experience VG-10 holds it's edge noticeably better than 8CR13MOV when used to cut harder or abrasive materials like wood, plastic, lots of cardboard, etc. However, if used only lightly, like food prep or just opening package and mail in low quantities, edge retention between both is barely noticeable.
 
mz9393 said:
2) The VG10 steel of the Delica is a layered steel, with outer layers comprised of softer stainless steel for toughness and rust resistance, and a harder carbon steel core for superior edge holding. So in theory, it's both tougher and holds an edge longer than the Persistence's steel.
Click to expand...

Thats not correct. Maybe youre thinking about Fallknivens laminated blades with their VG-10 core laminated with 420J2??
 
Sam,

Great to hear that you really enjoy the Persistence. To answer your questions:

1. G-10 vs. FRN. Both are fiberglass reinforced composite materials, the chief difference being that FRN is nylon-based, while G-10 is epoxy-based. As with all things, personal preference is highly subjective. But from a more objective standpoint, G-10 is usually preferable to FRN because it is more resistant to chemicals and heat, and it has generally higher strength and rigidity. The advantage FRN has is that it can be molded into complex shapes and patterns for little to no extra cost, while G-10 handles must be machined out of pre-formed slabs, and G-10 is very hard on tools.

I have become very picky about the type of FRN handled kinfe I will use. It used to be that everyone cast the FRN handle in one single piece and then riveted everything (blade, lock spring, lock bar) in place. This made for a wonderfully rigid and smooth-opening knife in most cases (Cold Steel Voyagers, older model Spyderco Endura, etc. . .). But the new Spyderco Endura I have, for example, uses steel liners and FRN handle scales all bolted together, and it's kind of flexy. Whereas the new Spyderco Stretch with the same steel liners and FRN scales has zero handle flex. Could be I just got a random dud.

However, for folders using steel liners and G-10 scales you typically get VERY rigid handles across the board. Likewise, folders using solid G-10 handles tend to also be very rigid. I point this out mostly to highlight the perceivable differences in strength between G-10 and FRN.

There is also the issue of tactile feel between FRN and G-10. And that argument is just as subjective as all the rest. Really it comes down to personal preference and experience gained by using a wide variety of knives with different handle materials. I tend to prefer the texture of smooth G-10, but others might like the bi-directional FRN that Spyderco uses. Others might really love Cold Steel's old volcano grip zytel handles. It's really all about finding out for yourself in the long run.

2. As for steel, VG-10 has a higher carbon content and a finer grain structure than 8Cr13MoV, and it is usually heat treated to be a tad bit harder. All of this gives it the ability to take a very fine edge, and when given a fine edge the steel tends to roll rather than dull. So bringing back the edge is usually a matter of using a steel or a strop.

BUT, as with all things, your mileage may vary. With knives it really comes down to making an educated decision, tyring it out, and then using that experience to educate your next decision. Some would call it "trial and error," but I prefer to call it "creative learning."

Enjoy your new Spydie, by which I mean "use the hell out of it". I think that you are really going to like it.

-nate
 
kmm said:
Thats not correct. Maybe youre thinking about Fallknivens laminated blades with their VG-10 core laminated with 420J2??
Click to expand...

You guys are right. I assumed all VG-10 was laminated like the steel Fallkniven uses. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Hi LawyerSam,

Glad to hear you are enjoying your knife. Thanx for the support. Eric and I spent a great deal of time refining the Persistence design. It's a challenging size to make ergonomic.

Robot's explanation and comparisons are quite accurate. As mentioned, use the hell out of your knife and learn as much as you can. Then try another flavor. The more you learn about knives, the better Spyderco looks.

sal
 
Nate, you have been a big help. If I can sell my one knife I got in a trade, I might be over some more Spyderco's you told me about. It's funny, but I look at the cheapies I have and the blade is like 3/4th inch bigger, and overall maybe 1.5 inches bigger, but it looks too huge to carry around. For what I do, I think 2.75 to 3.00 inches or so is the perfect length, and maybe I could get talked into 2.50. Some of the smaller ones are nice, dont get me wrong, but Id rather have a few in my desired range, aesthetics mostly, until I get more 'specialized'.

I am getting over my fascination with that Axis lock of the Mini Grip. I figure, sometimes simpler is better - fewer things to break.

IT is 5:00 and I am off for home to do some chores that need a Spyder
 
Thanks for the nice words, Sal!
I love this place.

Anyway, I got to thinking about what I posted about my Endura's handle flexure, and it was bugging me that I might have said something incorrect or exaggerated an observed condition. So I pulled some folders out of the drawer and did a little experiment.

See, the thing is that for whatever reason I really remember the older one-piece molded Zytel (FRN) handles being very stiff, and the flexure I am talking about comes from pinching the handle scales between the thumb and forefingers as shown below.

000_0002.jpg


Coincidentally, you have to pinch pretty hard, and with the Endura 4 you get maybe 1 mm of movement at the exposed/unsupported edges of the scales near the center of the handle.

I tried this with three other zytel-handled knives. These are all Cold Steel Voyagers, which are the knives that for whatever reason made me think that one-piece cast Zytel (FRN) handles are laterally stiffer. Stacked next to the Endura you have a 4", 5" and 6" blade model, all with proportionally longer handles.

100_1293.jpg


I gave each one a squeeze and basically found that the Endura 4 is just as stiff as its predecessors. As handle length increases I would get proportionally more flexure from pinching the middle of the handle. It's just like all of those simply-supported beam problems we studied in college. The farther the distance between supports at each end of a beam, the more the beam will flex for a given force.

SO!! What does all this mean?!
1. It means that Sal and his guys over at Spyderco are cranking out kick-ass products that get better with each design iteration!

2. The perceived difference in flexure between the Stretch and the Endura that I experienced was a matter of handle length and geometry. The stretch had a significantly shorter handle compared to the Endura, and therefore a proportionally higher stiffness.

3. It means that I can sleep at night knowing that I'm not crazy and that I'm dragging anyone's name or product through the mud.

4. It's another data point LawyerSam can use when he decides to pull the trigger on a new Spyderco Delica at some point in the future. (it's gonna be a stiff, hard-working, little cutting machine).
 
LawyerSam said:
I am getting over my fascination with that Axis lock of the Mini Grip. I figure, sometimes simpler is better - fewer things to break.

IT is 5:00 and I am off for home to do some chores that need a Spyder
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The Axis lock is actually pretty simple. Just as many moving parts as a lockback (except that there are two springs on the Axis vs. the one spring in a lockback). I hate to sound like all the other forumites when I say, "get both and figure out which one you like," so I won't tell you to "get both."

I've been on a real minimalist trajectory lately, so I will still stand by my advice to use the hell out of your Persistence and see what you do/don't like before you go out and do something rash. Let the decision juices percolate, and then make an informed next move.

Enjoy.

-nate
 
LawyerSam said:
2) I know that the steel is not the best, and I expected super, duper sharp and it may be, but running my thumb against it lightly, I did not get cut. So, what makes the steel in the Delica better?
Click to expand...

no offense to LawyerSam but its possible your sharpening skills are off

I have a tenacious (same steel/same grind) and it could cut you just looking at it.
 
Regarding "out of the box" sharpness. All Spydercos, regardless of steel and country of origin, are sharpened by hand. Most, again universally, are extremely sharp when received. But, like anything done by hand, someone anywhere can have a bad day, or be new on the job, or simply be less skilled.

Paul
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Are they sharpened with the Spyderco Sharpmaker? I just bought one and tried to restore the factory edge to my Tenacious, but I just can't seem to get there. I watched the video and followed the instructions to the T:

20 strokes on each side on the corners of the course stones
20 strokes on each side on the flat sides of the course stones
20 strokes on each side on the corners of the ceramic stones
20 strokes on each side on the flat sides of the ceramic stones

Am I missing something?

I used to be able to slice paper effortlessly. Now, the knife snags when I try to do it.

EDIT: I figured out the problem. The blade must have had some burrs on it. I cut up a few cardboard boxes with it and now it push cuts through paper quite easily without snagging. This must have stropped the blade.
 
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Couple more questions

1) There is a 013 beside the spider near the thumbhole. Signficance?

2) If I use the thumbhole to start to open the blade and then flick my wrist which snaps the blade open, will I hurt anything? Or better to continue the thumb opening?
 
LawyerSam said:
Couple more questions

1) There is a 013 beside the spider near the thumbhole. Signficance?

2) If I use the thumbhole to start to open the blade and then flick my wrist which snaps the blade open, will I hurt anything? Or better to continue the thumb opening?
Click to expand...

1- The 013 may be a collectors club number.

2- Always better to open the knife in a controlled motion as to avoid impact/stress damage to the stop pin. I was a flicker when I got my first Delica 20 years ago. :)
 
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