Low end customs - worth buying?

W

W.T. Beck

Joined
Jul 9, 2001
Messages
1,411
In surveying the knives I have bought over the past couple of years, I am questioning whether or not lower-priced customs are really all they are cracked up to be. In fact, I have just about concluded that factory knives are a better bargain in the low price range.

I have bought inexpensive customs from three makers, and all have serious faults. The first three came from a guy who I am convinced uses kits to make his knives, although he claims to make the blades himself. The next I bought were from a guy who makes pretty good knives, but supplies them with some of the worst kydex sheaths I have seen.

Finally I bought a couple of knives from a maker known for very sturdy and reasonably priced knives, but the second one is crudely finished, with lots of sharp edges and scales that do not mate well to the tang.

Has anyone else had the same experience, or have I just bought from the wrong makers?
 
There are some great cheaply priced customs out there.

Am I to understand you bought THREE knives from a custom maker that you suspect uses commercial blades and you didn't send them back?

I understand about the kydex sheath. Most knifemakers don't make their own sheaths. Most kydex sheaths can be improved easily with a little well placed heat.
 
My guess is that depends upon who a custom maker might happen to be. without naming names, there are many that have a high and low cost price point and whose low cost knife is dynamite. OK, I'll name you one - RJ Martin. His Q-40 entry level folder is awesome. So it depends upon the maker.

That being said - your point brings up something I often thought about but have not had the presence of mind to post about.

Many production knife companies are now doing knives that are outside their normal offerings - some with better manufacturing methods and engineering in the work. Think Spyderco's ATR, or Buck's Mayo or even some of the nicer material commemoratives. Their price point is at or near custom prices, so I thought from time to time, why not go for the custom knife, rather than something that hundreds of other folks have?

One vote for the production is that you can get another pretty quickly if it's lost or stolen. One vote for the custom is that they are so darned excellent in materials and workmanship. Again - it depends upon who the maker is.
 
The first three came from a guy who I am convinced uses kits to make his knives, although he claims to make the blades himself.
1) While you didn't say he lied to you, you're right, that's pretty bad.

The next I bought were from a guy who makes pretty good knives, but supplies them with some of the worst kydex sheaths I have seen.
2) For a bargain custom, this seems like a TINY price to pay. (to me)

I bought a couple of knives from a maker known for very sturdy and reasonably priced knives, but the second one is crudely finished, with lots of sharp edges and scales that do not mate well to the tang.
3) What about performance? If you're buying a knife known only to perform at a low price, why are you worrying about how it looks? Just apply a dremmel, sand paper, or a file, and viola, you've got a knife that you're much happier with.

To each his/her own, but I've had nearly the same experiences you have, and to me almost nothing makes up for the fact that your knife is unique to you. For the price, sure, you could get a production, but so can anyone else. Give an Ugly as heck Livesay over a pretty Boker any day as long as Performace is similar, I'll be much happier with the Livesay, and I won't be afraid to use it. Also I've noticed that more often the customs have bigger, if not full tangs. (fixed) And the customs are much more easy to modify if you need to.
*****Boink, why don't you throw up another thread, I was going to reply to you, but I just don't want to take over this one.
 
Good idea.

But developing on your thoughts - I have found that customs with slight imperfections become my users. Those that are way too perfect remain for fondling, looking at and keeping in the safe.
 
I have a modest collection and have never spent more than $400 for a custom knife, and most were around $250. All my customs have been fixed blades, except for one folder.

I definitely agree with you as far as folders go, primarily because I don't like liner locks, and most of the custom folders seem to be liner locks. Also, I've always looked at folders as "compromise knives" - I carry a folder because I'm too lazy to carry a fixed blade, or because it wouldn't be legal or appropriate for some reason. Because folders have the inherent "defect" of being folders, I don't find custom folders to be that appealing - why spend a bunch of money on something that isn't going to be "perfect", no matter what the scales are made of, or how much file work you put into it.

As far as fixed blades go, I don't agree as much. I have some downright elegant knives that are definitely low-end as far as price goes. However, I really do my homework and only buy customs from well-known makers, so I know what I'm getting even if I don't inspect the knife and sheath myself. Why don't I buy from unknown makers? Because I'm afraid I'll have an experience like yours.
 
Hello Shappa,

No, I did not send the knives back to the guy who I think uses kits. I bought the knives when I had just started collecting knives, and for a while had no idea that they were not totally hand made. Then I asked the guy about making a knife to my specifications, and he dodged the issue. Later I read some posts that said this is one of the signs that a guy really isn't making his own blades. Also, I later came across some blades for sale in a Jantz catalog that looked exactly like his blades, and had exactly the same measurements and steel. I don't have any further proof that the guy is falsely advertising his blades as hand made, but I sure believe he is.

Walking Man - if you don't mind getting a knife with a throw away sheath and then having to send it to someone else to get a decent replacement made, that's fine. But I would rather get a serviceable sheath to start with, and avoid the extra trouble. Plus it would cost the maker less to make a better sheath in the first place, and charge a bit more for it, than it will cost me to get a replacement.
 
WT how much money we talking about?

Low priced custom makes me think around $200.
 
A sheath can be a very personal issue. for what it's worth, I almost always dump the sheath that comes with a knife and go get another. Sheath makers who only make sheaths usually have a better idea and can conform it to my style of carry. This is even so with some production blades I have gotten, maybe even more so. Of course, there are exceptions - like Bob Dozier sheaths and Mad Dog's sheaths. Those, I keep as they work just right for me and are very well implemented.
 
I have/have seen inexpensive "custom" fixed blades that were extremely well done. Folders seem to be another story. Many are no better, and some are worse, than equally priced factory folders.

Paul
 
I hate to say this, but I think you've just been dealing with the wrong people. Low prices tend to mean less experienced makers and therefore less consistant quality. Still, some new knifemakers produce amazing work. And not all low-priced knives are from newcomers. People like Bob Dozier and John Greco produce extraordinary knives at bargain prices because they want their knives used.

--Bob Q
 
Its all personal perspective.
If your looking at it as an investment, then probably not. Not unless you've really got an eye for who is going to make the big time.
But as far as that goes I think there are much better ways to invest money than buying knives. Especially considering the fact that you talk like your using them.

So what you have to ask yourself is do I want to take a chance on a new guy and get a unique knife? or do you want to stick with production knives and have the same as everybody else, but not take chances?

You haven't had the best experiences so far it sounds like. Thats about like production knives though. You have to know what your buying. Its a shame how things can work out, but if your careful there are alot of really talented makers out there offering stuff for bargain prices.

As for the sheaths. I think Kydex was sent down on us by satan himself ;) I think I make very servicable knives, and some of them even look pretty decent too. Sheaths are a struggle for me though.I tell you up front,and even offer the knife without a sheath though. And I wouldn't send a sheath that I didn't deem usable for myself. Its just not possible for most guys who make knives to compete with people like Normark or Wild Rose. It takes just as much committment to learn sheaths as it does for knives. Doing both equally well is a hell of a lot to ask.
 
Hahaha I think I know who W.T. Beck is talking about re: the kit using custom maker. The maker in question was even featured in a Tactical Knives article about two years back and most, if not all of the knives looked like blades from Koval and Jantz. Granted, they were nicely finished and the sheathwork was superb (if you're into leather that is), but this guy either a) knocked off the patterns or b) bought the blades and finished em.

I refuse to name names but there is no question in my mind since some of the blades were not run-of-the-mill skinners and hunters that could conceiveably be similar in shape. On his site there's a wierd shaped pushdagger skinner, the blade of which I have seen advertised in all of the big knife mags, a "Persian Fighter" that is definitely the "Big Game Skinner" pattern from Koval, and a boot knife that looks just like Koval's also. And then there's the letter opener, and so on...
 
Well I have only one custom,a $200 folder from Jim Burke.I can't find anything wrong with it,and although I don't care that much for linerlocks all that much,well being a "custom' I got it with thicker liners( thats one reason to buy customs).Another is his style of linerlocks is better than most.

I feel for $200 I did very well and since his price has gone up and the wait is growing,I guess so do others.
 
Dave H - the cheapest was $60 and the most expensive was $175. In the case of the $60 knife, it was the one with the sharp edges and poorly fitted scales. My $40 Kbar and $50 CRK&T don't have these problems.

mr44 - the guy you describe does not sound like the same one. But I think there is more than one maker out there who passes off kit knives as 100% handmade.

Boink - the unsatisfactory sheaths are worse than I described. I read a post by a very irate customer who lost a knife from that maker due to the poorly made sheath. The kydex loosened almost immediately after he got it, and the result was that the knife fell out of sheath and was lost in the woods. The maker also refused to replace the knife, refusing to take responsibility for the unreliable sheath. At least, that was what this irate customer claimed.

I can certainly believe it. One of the knives I bought from that same maker has a very loose sheath, and I would certainly lose the knife if I were to go walking through the woods with it on my belt. Sorry, but I just don't think there is any excuse for supplying a sheath which will cause the loss of a knife as soon as someone gets it.

Again, the point of my post is that I have gotten better made factory knives for the same or less money than these low cost customs. And as far as I know, none of the factory knives were misrepresented in the way the first "customs" I bought were.
 
I agree that under $200.00 customs can be a hit or miss affair. I find that factory knives in this range are more nicely ground and finished and tend to have better resale.
 
I can't comment on you particular purchases, but I am a new custom maker, and I think my knives would be part of the inexpensive customs you are talking about. My fit and finish may not be perfect, but I do the best I can on each knife and they are getting better and better. All of the knives I have sold to date have been heat treated by Paul Bos, and they all have sheaths done by profesionnal sheath makers, because those are two areas I don't think I am ready to do on my own yet. I think my knives are a good value, because I offer a lifetime gaurantee, have unique designs, the best quality materials I can find, and each one is unique. Something no factory knife can be.
Kyle Fuglesten
 
kyle,
what's that knife in your avatar? is it something you made? what specs?
thanks,
spyken
 
From what I have seen, in many cases a fairly low end handmade blade is genuinely superior to a similarly priced production knife. This is assuming that you wish to use the knife as a working tool, rather than look for perfectly symmetrical grinds and 100% fit and finish.

For example, several months ago I found myself needing a ~5 inch general purpose fixed blade; hopefully for less than $100. After looking at all the options available from companies such as Becker and Swamp Rat I ended up with a flat ground Greco handmade MST for around $60.

The grinds are not quite even, and the tang holes are not quite round. There were rough edges on the sides of the knife. There was a discolored portion about the size of a quarter on the micarta scale. The overall fit and finish was quite poor.

None of this bothered me at all.

The cosmetic issues were easy to overlook, as I intend for this knife to be nothing but a functional hand tool. I no more desired a pretty knife than I desire a pretty screw driver. About 35 seconds with a sharpening stone took care of the burr on the handle.

At this point I had a solid, effective knife made of quality materials with an excellent overall design for $60. It has never let me down, and has taken quite difficult applications in stride. With the possible exception of Himilayan Imports, there is nowhere else that I am aware of where a customer can get a differentially temperd fixed blade for anywhere near this price range.

Lower-priced handmades may not be as nicely finished as their production counterparts, but in my experience they are superior in function. They may even take a bit of work to get them "just right".

I have no doubt that your $40 Kbar and your $50 CRKT are better fitted and finished than my Greco. Despite that, when it comes to actual usage as a cutting tool I would take the Greco over any Kbar or CRKT product of which I am aware.

It's just a matter of what you are buying the knife for, I guess.
 
I would also say that you may just have dealt with bad examples of inexpensive custom makers. I make knives as a hobby, and I sell them to pay for knives that I want to own. Let me give you a couple of perspectives from a newbie hobby maker.


Knife making is hard! For a taste of how hard knife making can be, go to the store and get a piece of mild steel, and 1 sheet of wet/dry sandpaper in 80 grit, 180 grit, 320, 400 and 600 grit. I hope you have a file too. Now take that piece of metal (say it is 2" wide and you have it 8" long) and clamp it to a work surface. Now use the file to drawfile a section of the metal flat, with an even file finish. Then go up the grits with the paper (backed on a sanding block) until you have a perfect 600 grit finish. In case you don't have the time/energy to try this, trust me when I tell you that it is HARD WORK! Try cutting out a knife blank with a hack saw, drilling all kinds of holes accurately, filing, hand sanding, grinding even bevels, getting out all fo the scratches, hand sanding hardened steel, etc. Knife making is very hard, and for new folks it is very difficult to get all of these aspects done as good or more perfectly than a factory piece. So it is understandable that some newbie makers may honestly be doing the best they can when they assemble a knife with a poor finish and uneven scales and such. Hopefully the next knife they make is better. However, there are also other newbie makers who put in the time to really make somethign as perfect as possible, given one's skills. I like to think that I am one of those guys. I have sold 3 knives and I have 4 orders (now I'm a real maker since I have a backlog!!!!!). I am slow because I am finishing my masters in philosophy. On a fighter I am making right now, I have probably put in 15-20 hours work on it, and it is just a 7" spear point with swedge and rat tail tang. Why so much time? Well, when I sent it out to heat treat, the grind was rough and I intended to clean it up after. The knife is about 1.25" wide, and the swedge was to be les than 1/2" deep, while the main grind is 3/4 wide. Basically, it was to look something liek a Camillus CQB knife, but the main grind would be wider, and there would be a fairly wide central ridge running to about 3/4" of the tip. Well, this was my first swedge grind and after heat treat I couldn't clean it up well on my grinder. It was very hard for me to keep the grind lines symmetrical. Instead od just stopping, I kept going until I got the liens evened up. Now the fighter blade looks a bit different. The swedge begins further back on the blade now, and the swedge meets the main grid - no central rib of thick steel now! Also, the angle of the plunge cut of the swedge grind is about 45 degrees! That area got a bit messy on my grinder, and I knew that I would only wreck it if I kept on grinding. SO, I've been cleaning that up by hand. I have been using a paint stir stick, a block of micarta, a dowel, a strip of leather and lots of sandpaper and elbow grease to clean it up and make it look right. Fortunately the clean-up work is almost done,a dn then I get to put on the guard and handle! I won't stop until I have done everything I can to make that knife as best as I can make it. Sure, I could have let the grinds uneven - I am a newbie maker and it was as good as I could do on my machine! Also, I could leave the plunge cut messy looking - try harder next knife! But I won't. And after it is all said and done, maybe I'll have earned a rate of $4 an hour for my labor!

I hope that my little story shows a few important things. There are new makers out there who produce knives that are functional, but flawed. New makers will make flawed products! Paying any kind of money for a flawed product may sound dumb, but don't forget that hand made knvies are a hand craft, not a production set-up, and materials aren't cheap and the work is far from easy. However, there are new makers out there offering great value for the money. As always, make sure when buying a knife that you ask plenty of questions and know what you are getting in advance. The main reason I got into knife making was to learn about knives. Typically I will grind a knife and then shoot the pic of the ground knife around to forumites just to get some info, to share, etc. I am fortunate in that some forumites have liked the pic that they saw and said they'd buy it when it is finished! WOHOO! Once a person wants a knife that I have ground, I will talk about what I can and can't do as far as features, handle materials, etc. I also shoot pics of other knives I have made that have materials or features that might go good with the knife. That way, the "customer" gets to see the quality of work I am capable of. For example, I make a knfie that I call a Magic Knot Knife (look at amy avatar for a small pic of one!) Typically I do a 320 grit hand finish on them, and the Magic Knot Knife has a special cord wrapped into a channel cut into the handle. The cord comes in three types, and in many color variations. One forumite here has a Magic Knot Knife on order, and I sent him pics of the 2 MKKs that I have already sold. By lookign at the pics, he got to see my consistency with blade finishing, the various cord combinations, etc. This way, the customer knows what I am capable of and knows what he will be getting for his hard earned money.

So, long story short, inexpensive customs can be a bargain! Shop around for sure. Check out the Shop Talk section here, and the Gallery. Post in Shop Talk if you want a custom knfie for a low price. Lots of newbie makers askign questions there that will eb glad to e-mail you! And make sure you ask lots of questions about what you'd be getting, and pics of completed knives would be great too! Also, don't forget that you are buying a hand crafted product, not just a knife. If you want custom quality for Kabar prices, you are nuts! Buy a custom if you want something that is a bit special, something hand made, or somethign designed with specific performance requirements in mind that isn't found on factory knives. Ever wonder why lots of makers do hand satin finished with the finish going lenghthwise on the blade? Machine finishes are put on widthwise! A custom maker can do what the machines can't do inexpensively :) A custom maker can make a knife 5.3 inches long, or 5.8, or whatever you want. A custom maker can use odd materials. GO for somethign special like that with a custom maker! Also, realize that beginners will make mistakes! Hopefully a newbie maker (ALL MAKERS!) will be upfront about what they can and can't do.

I hope this helps some!



*****IMPORTANT***** I did NOT write this to get orders from y'all out there! My backlog is long enough! With my educational comittments and equipment on hand, I can't make a ton of knives. So please don't ask me to make you a knife! I really don't take orders (the only 2 orders were for one close friend and a family) - I make the knives that I want to make and I am fortunate that some folks have liked what I have done enough to give me some money for a CrayolaMade knife :) Too bad I don't have time to make a ton more! I could use the experience and the money! Hmm... I coudl make a whole lot more if I spent 5 minutes grinding handle scales and only "finished" blades with my Nicholsen fine file... :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top