Lower Bainite 52100 at 60HRC for knife blade?

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I found this very interesting. Since lower bainite is known to be much tougher than tempered martensite at the same HRC but we usually can get it at much lower hardness.

This article said that by austenitizing 52100 at 1555F and quench in molten salt at 440F and soaking for 7.5 hours will get at 60HRC with much lesser RA than normally method.

I really wonder if bainitic structure will be good as knife edge?


http://www.aimnet.it/allpdf/pdf_pubbli/mar16/Altena.pdf
 
I don't see why it wouldn't be a good knife edge. The HRC hardness is on par with tempered martensite so pretty much the same yield strength. Toughness is even higher than tempered martensite so it would imply that it is even less brittle.
 
I have read somewhere that lower bainite at similar hardness is prone to ripped/roll at the edge than proper HT tempered martensite but I'm not very sure about this.
 
It has been researched and pretty much beaten to death ... and the result is that there is no reason to force a blade into bainite when tempered martensite will pass all the same tests.

It is sort of like:
You can make a crescent wrench by milling a solid bar of titanium into one ... but you can buy one at Sears that will work just as well for $10.
 
Except if I had a milled titanium crescent wrench, I would tell people about it and show it off like telling people I'm from Texas or do Crossfit. Because it'd be really cool, and most people would understand why it's cool, even if it doesn't perform any better than the Sears one. I don't think I'd care to explain to anyone why I heat treated that way instead of in a typical manner, or whether they'd care to listen.
 
It has been researched and pretty much beaten to death ... and the result is that there is no reason to force a blade into bainite when tempered martensite will pass all the same tests.

It is sort of like:
You can make a crescent wrench by milling a solid bar of titanium into one ... but you can buy one at Sears that will work just as well for $10.

I have never seen any research on this topic and we're talking about 60HRC bainite 52100...

I know there are many discussion has been made but on steel like L6 which its bainite structure are often martempered to much lower HRC than this case...


There are many reasons to use molten salt to marquenching/martempering.

1. Its almost eliminate any warpage/distortion via quenching.

2. When you already heated the salt to the target temp. its will consume very little electricity to maintain at that temp. If 52100 lower bainite at 60HRC is better than normally HT method it wouldn't be any higher expense to do it for the maker who has molten nitrate salt equipment.


This is totally different with your crescent wrench logic... Any cheaper like 1084 or 5160 with proper HT will pass the same test as 52100 or CPM-3V... so why we need to bother with the more complicated steel? because we want in always in search for a better steel at least in some categories of performance didn't we?

 
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A few points/questions
1. Isn't the "trick" to Howard Clark's L6 blades that they have a martensitic edge and bainitic body?
2. From what I have read from Verhoeven and other sources, am I incorrect in wondering if 7.5 hours in the quench tank is a bit of overkill for a "simple" carbon steel like 52100? On the other hand, might that be what you have to do to get 60Rc because typically, I hear about bainte hardness levels in the low to mid 50 range?
3. It appears that they comparison is between 52100 austenized at the higher "industry standard" temp of 1550F and quenched for martensite vs the lower 1475F temp that some people are using for blades these days? I have heard claims that the lower temp regimen produces a tougher structure than the high temp one, which produces carbides that give you abrasion resistance. So would the difference for OUR applications be less drastic than the 25% improvement they got fro bearings? Also, would the much loved fine edge stability of the low temp martensitic HT regimen go away?
 
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Yes I believe Howard Clark's do the full body bainite first and then use some set-up equipment with two direction of acetylene torch to burn and austenitizing the edge and quench directly into water with surfactant added.

From what I have read, the closer to MS the harder of lower bainite structure. But it will significantly need more time to soak at that temp too.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._combined_bainitic-martensitic_heat_treatment
 
Mr.Clark won;t come right out and say how he does it, but he does say that the information you need is out there and not that hard to find. My concern is that I have heard that bainite does not make for the ideal knife edge. One of the things that folks have discovered of late is that 52100 is one of those steels like D2 where you get better results when you deviate a little bit from the industry standard recipe. I just wonder if a lower bainite structure, even at 60Rc, would give you the same ability to take and retain a VERY fine edge like 52100 properly heat treated at the lower austenizing temperature does. Another interesting question might be how this process might work say if you were making IMPACT tools like a tactical hawk as opposed to slicing tools? You might be able to go even farther as the theorized Clark Method would probaby be a lot easier with the short edge and spike of a hawk than 24-30 inches of katana edge. You could do that with a torch, an induction coil or maybe even a salt pot if you were doing it in a big industrial furnace.
Yes I believe Howard Clark's do the full body bainite first and then use some set-up equipment with two direction of acetylene torch to burn and austenitizing the edge and quench directly into water with surfactant added.

From what I have read, the closer to MS the harder of lower bainite structure. But it will significantly need more time to soak at that temp too.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._combined_bainitic-martensitic_heat_treatment
 
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This is an interesting idea. I simply don't have the right equipment or time to play with it though.
 
In a purist view, a LB blade apex consists Ferrite% & Cementite%. Hardness of Ferrite/Iron-crystal lattice is less than 20RC. So Ferrite% of the apex will roll or burnish/plastic quickly. For 1%C 52100 steel - LB ferrite network is super fine with lattice thickness less than 250nm - more ~ 100nm. Let's pretend apex is interwoven with ferrite & cementite every 100nm. This type of edge would most fit for impact works but ill-fitted for sub-micron edge and wearing via fine abrasives (such as silicate in plant fibers).

As mentioned by others - a low aust & low tempered martensite 60rc would almost as good in impact as LB but way better in other areas.

A duplex (mixed% of LB & mart) 60rc is just something in between. I've made quite a few blades with duplex microstructures - meh, all burr no gain over tempered mart 60rc. Well, at least it doesn't burr as much as LB - but burr is not a problem on a thick chopping edge - yup they will burnish/plastic away quick.
 
Luong, I recall reading somewhere that a stubborn burr on some martensitic steels can be a sign of excess RA. I was also told a number of years ago that a fine burr that you can say stretch out "long" sharpening in he belt but that you can knock of quickly is sign of fine aus grain on steel like W2. Any experience with that?
 
Joe, you are right, stubborn burr also can be attributed to RA. BCC & FCC can slip along the lattice plane - this plasticity on the edge = burrs.

Blade of my 62rc 52100 (and others too) pass around knife was intentionally kept RA around 5-6%. Yep, nasty micro burrs - take sharpening skills to dealt with them, LOL - best to ignore these burrs and let them self-destruct (fracture after phase change) in use. After more calculation & empirical data, these RA benefit seem to be limited to the role of energy dispersal for low impact load. Where high impact load + RA stored-energy + RA conversion = liable for making 1 blade into 2 pieces. Also my envision 'wear on demand', where surface RA freshly converted to mart and or precip carbide would be great on the apex, is a bust/mis-calculation because cohesion is low so this thin layer of fresh converted stuff roll & flake off.

Let's pick 'fine aus grain' size = 8um dia. In turn, with maximum theoretical elongation along lattice plane, thus minimum dia ~6um. Aha, this is quite trivially short compare to scale of sharpening/grinding burr. Sorry, this "long" burr made possible by ferrite and RA. The finer the grain the thicker (relative to % of volume) the RA plaque along the grain boundary. Easy to see in conventional ht when grain dia goes toward 1um - it's mostly RA (assume super fast cooling) because M50% is probably below LN2 temperature. My 2 cents - IME/wag.

Luong, I recall reading somewhere that a stubborn burr on some martensitic steels can be a sign of excess RA. I was also told a number of years ago that a fine burr that you can say stretch out "long" sharpening in he belt but that you can knock of quickly is sign of fine aus grain on steel like W2. Any experience with that?
 
It is difficult to make broad generalizations when it comes to lower bainite vs martensite. Lower bainite and martensite are actually incredibly similar from a microstructure standpoint, they can be difficult to distinguish without electron microscopy. During tempering of martensite small transition carbides are precipitated within the martensite which slowly transforms the martensite to a phase which looks more and more like ferrite, reducing strength and increasing toughness. With bainite, the carbides precipitate during formation. So the sheaves/laths look very similar but the carbides are randomly oriented in martensite but are ordered in the same orientation in bainite. In summary, the two phases would be expected to have similar properties, depending on the degree of tempering in the martensite.

Things become more complicated when it comes to different alloys, where composition will have an impact on bainite and martensite properties. Many journal articles compare bainite at lower hardness to tempered martensite where we would of course expect a toughness improvement with lower hardness. And temperature selection during bainite formation will affect the toughness and hardness as well. There are seemingly contradictory conclusions because of these complicating factors. For example, the article cited in the first post in this thread states that they found an improvement in yield stress by using bainite, while this paper states that they found lower yield stress with bainite: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0254058407005081 Yield stress is the property that controls whether an edge rolls at low force. However, in general yield stress is high with bainite as it is with martensite. It's not the difference between very low yield stress and very high, the difference is smaller than that.

Without the ability to do impact testing, one would never know if a bainite heat treatment was leading to superior properties compared to quench and tempered.

A couple other things brought up in this thread:

1) Marquenching and austempering seem similar on the surface, but the purpose of the two treatments are different. Marquenching can be performed with no formation of bainite whatsoever. Marquenching is performed to equalize the temperature prior to martensite formation so that internal stresses are reduced. Because otherwise martensite forms first on the surface while austenite is contained internally. Martensite is a different size than austenite so this size differences leads to strain.
2) Austempering to achieve bainite is seen in the knife community as the "fancy," or expensive heat treatment. However in many industries austempering is performed to lower cost as it is a one step process instead of quenching and having separate multiple tempers.
3) Making statements about bainite versus martensite "lattice thickness" and therefore making conclusions about how fine an edge a knife can hold are pure speculation. First of all, "lattice thickness" can't be what is being referred to as 250 nm is much too large for atomic spacing. Furthermore, there is no evidence to indicate that bainite is in any way worse at supporting a fine edge. And claiming that the ferrite in lower bainite is less than 20Rc is a misunderstanding of how strengthening mechanisms work in materials.
 
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Are you saying, in absence of any other crystal structure, a pure ferrite matrix is harder than 20rc? Is it speculation or actual experience? Luckily this world doesn't know how to make a whole matrix out of Iron Whiskers :p

In a pure LB apex is one-unit cell wide (magical sharpening), there will be sections of ferrite and cementite. Particle & structure strengthening are sum of many large number of unit cells - lest not confuse readers with large objects of higher complexity.

...
3) Making statements about bainite versus martensite "lattice thickness" and therefore making conclusions about how fine an edge a knife can hold are pure speculation. First of all, "lattice thickness" can't be what is being referred to as 250 nm is much too large for atomic spacing. Furthermore, there is no evidence to indicate that bainite is in any way worse at supporting a fine edge. And claiming that the ferrite in lower bainite is less than 20Rc is a misunderstanding of how strengthening mechanisms work in materials.
 
Are you saying, in absence of any other crystal structure, a pure ferrite matrix is harder than 20rc? Is it speculation or actual experience? Luckily this world doesn't know how to make a whole matrix out of Iron Whiskers :p
I didn't say anything about a "pure" ferrite matrix. We're talking about lower bainite. The strength of the ferrite is controlled by many things, including the carbides within it.
In a pure LB apex is one-unit cell wide (magical sharpening), there will be sections of ferrite and cementite. Particle & structure strengthening are sum of many large number of unit cells - lest not confuse readers with large objects of higher complexity.
One unit cell would not contain both ferrite and cementite. I don't think discussing unit cells is the way to avoid confusing readers.
 
Are you saying, in absence of any other crystal structure, a pure ferrite matrix is harder than 20rc? Is it speculation or actual experience? Luckily this world doesn't know how to make a whole matrix out of Iron Whiskers :p

In a pure LB apex is one-unit cell wide (magical sharpening), there will be sections of ferrite and cementite. Particle & structure strengthening are sum of many large number of unit cells - lest not confuse readers with large objects of higher complexity.

Please cut down on the jibberish and please stop trying to dominate every thread on heat treating and metallurgy. You are making it difficult for members to contribute.

Hoss
 
I was addressed Larrin's indirect point toward my post. I will ignore your personal attack....
Please cut down on the jibberish and please stop trying to dominate every thread on heat treating and metallurgy. You are making it difficult for members to contribute.

Hoss
 
It is difficult to make broad generalizations when it comes to lower bainite vs martensite. Lower bainite and martensite are actually incredibly similar from a microstructure standpoint, they can be difficult to distinguish without electron microscopy. During tempering of martensite small transition carbides are precipitated within the martensite which slowly transforms the martensite to a phase which looks more and more like ferrite, reducing strength and increasing toughness. With bainite, the carbides precipitate during formation. So the sheaves/laths look very similar but the carbides are randomly oriented in martensite but are ordered in the same orientation in bainite. In summary, the two phases would be expected to have similar properties, depending on the degree of tempering in the martensite.

Things become more complicated when it comes to different alloys, where composition will have an impact on bainite and martensite properties. Many journal articles compare bainite at lower hardness to tempered martensite where we would of course expect a toughness improvement with lower hardness. And temperature selection during bainite formation will affect the toughness and hardness as well. There are seemingly contradictory conclusions because of these complicating factors. For example, the article cited in the first post in this thread states that they found an improvement in yield stress by using bainite, while this paper states that they found lower yield stress with bainite: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0254058407005081 Yield stress is the property that controls whether an edge rolls at low force. However, in general yield stress is high with bainite as it is with martensite. It's not the difference between very low yield stress and very high, the difference is smaller than that.

Without the ability to do impact testing, one would never know if a bainite heat treatment was leading to superior properties compared to quench and tempered.

A couple other things brought up in this thread:

1) Marquenching and austempering seem similar on the surface, but the purpose of the two treatments are different. Marquenching can be performed with no formation of bainite whatsoever. Marquenching is performed to equalize the temperature prior to martensite formation so that internal stresses are reduced. Because otherwise martensite forms first on the surface while austenite is contained internally. Martensite is a different size than austenite so this size differences leads to strain.
2) Austempering to achieve bainite is seen in the knife community as the "fancy," or expensive heat treatment. However in many industries austempering is performed to lower cost as it is a one step process instead of quenching and having separate multiple tempers.
3) Making statements about bainite versus martensite "lattice thickness" and therefore making conclusions about how fine an edge a knife can hold are pure speculation. First of all, "lattice thickness" can't be what is being referred to as 250 nm is much too large for atomic spacing. Furthermore, there is no evidence to indicate that bainite is in any way worse at supporting a fine edge. And claiming that the ferrite in lower bainite is less than 20Rc is a misunderstanding of how strengthening mechanisms work in materials.


Thanks you Larrin for very well explanation. :thumbup:
 
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