Machete/Knife making steel opinions

A

AtreidesMarine

Joined
Sep 27, 2011
Messages
5
Hi, I'm new to the forum and wish to have some opinions on a small project.

I have settled on using 1095 and O-1 steel, primarily O-1.

How viable is it to use O-1 as a machete and a knife?

I recently purchased a Cold Steel Kukri Magnum and the blade started chipping and I want better quality.
I love to look and design but I want to modify and use a stronger/better steel (like 1095 and O-1).

So long and short is I want to design and create a kukri similiar to the Cold Steel magnum
but thicker, better steel, my own design and such.

Any help and info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for you time and input. =)
 
I would not choose either for a large chopper type blade myself. Both are a bit high in carbon IMO, I would probably suggest 5160 or 1075/1080 over O-1 or 1095.
 
What makes 5160 better than 1095/O-1?
I figured the higher specs of 1095/O-1 would be better.

For instance I have a 10 inch machete style knife with sk5 that's better than the cold steel magnum kukri's 1055.
Why not use the higher spec O-1 for the kukri? I was thinking 1/8 or maybe even 1/4 for blade thinkness.

Just looking for help and opinions lol
 
The good kukris are made of things like 5160 for toughness and easy to sharpen . Typical machetes even the best old Collins, perhaps .60-.70 C , were sharpened in the field with a file -nothing fancy.High carbon is of no advantage and some disadvantage. For other alloys I have a kukri of 440B works fine .If you really want to get fancy use CPM 3V ,I have a fine custom chopper of that .
 
5160 is the poor mans super tough steel. it takes a beating and keeps going well. I have personally seen a knife that went through the journeyman ABS destruction test, including being bent to 90 degrees, and it had no cracks. granted, it had a very good HT, but it was very tough. If I was going to make a Khuk, then I would use L6, 3V or 5160. all of them would be awesome and are very, very tough. 1075 is the most common machete steel becuase it is very tough.

As far as blade thickness, traditional khukries are ground out of leaf springs. they are maybe 1/2 inch of steel at the spine. they are huge. 1/4 inch is closer to a machete than a khuk.

to your question about why SK5 is better than 1055, SK5 is basically 1080. that means that it has .8 percent carbon, rather than .55 percent carbon. that is a huge improvement. Read the stickies at the top of the page and see what makes a knife steel better for different stuff.

Though, DO NOT MAKE THE KNIFE. you will end up with the homepage of your browser being aldo's steel site. your bookmarks will all be knifemaking related, and you will spend all of your free time trawling craigslist for anvils, power hammers, and presses.
 
5160 is a spring steel and it is often used as leaf springs in vehicles. I would think something that can support trucks would be a tough steel. Therefore a chopper isgreat with 5160. Many JS test knives are 5160. It can take a good amount of abuse. It also isn't that bad to work with. However just remember no matter how tough the steel, if the heat treat is not done right, its just a KSO.
Dan

Geek beat me to it.
 
At least look at the Ontario Kukri and the one from Ka-Bar. Both are better than the CS, and very affordable. The Ontario has a thicker spine, 1/4", yet the full flat grind makes it lighter than the Ka-Bar. The Ontario is also 1095, and like their machetes can take a beating. I have a large chopper in 5160 and it does hold a better edge, but it was forged by Bruce Culberson, here on BF.
The Ka-Bar handle is fatter and they use a pretty tough steel, what ever it is has a good balance of edge holding and toughness. Yet, hit metal fencing enough and it will chip, like other steels.
 
Thanks for all the great input!
I really appreciate it.

To explain what exactly, I want to order a few blade blanks of 1095 and/or O-1 and then custom cut a few smaller knives to test out and heat treat, temper and if all goes well make a complete knife and then move on to two defferent kukri's a smaller one (18 inches overall) and a 24 inch overall.

I just read and heard good things about using 1095 and especially O-1 for great quality and ease of use machining and heat treating.
 
5160 will be just as easy to machine and HT as 01 will. you have to understand, just because a steel has "higher specs" does not mean it is better at everything than a steel with "worse" specs. why do they use 1075 for many machetes instead of S30V? though S30V probably has "better" specs, it tends to be a bit chippy and not as easy to maintain in the field as the 1075. it works better on smaller blades where it's edge holding is used well. Some steels are meant to take a beating, and some are meant to cut better. 5160 is meant to take a beating, and 1095/O1 will too, but the 5160 will excel at those sizes and tasks.
 
AtreidesMarine said:
Thanks for all the great input!
I really appreciate it.

To explain what exactly, I want to order a few blade blanks of 1095 and/or O-1 and then custom cut a few smaller knives to test out and heat treat, temper and if all goes well make a complete knife and then move on to two defferent kukri's a smaller one (18 inches overall) and a 24 inch overall.

I just read and heard good things about using 1095 and especially O-1 for great quality and ease of use machining and heat treating.
Click to expand...

Is it your intention to do the HT yourself, or send out ?
 
O1 is an excellent steel for something requiring a thin fine edge that's easy to touch up in the field, in fact it's my carbon steel of choice. It would certainly work for a machete or chopper, but it's not optimal. I'm not crazy about 1095. It's not junk by any means, but IMHO its greatest selling point is that it's cheap and takes a hamon very well.
I would definitely choose 5160 or 1080/1084 for a project to HT myself with basic equipment. They are somewhat tougher than O1 and just as important, easier to HT properly. They also happen to be inexpensive.

If you're willing to send it to a pro for HT, CPM-3V is my choice, hands-down. It's as tougher or tougher than the others, and will keep a fine edge much better. Then again, it's more expensive and a bit of a bear to sharpen once it does start to dull. Darn tradeoffs!

Geometry and final tempering play a huge role in how well any large blade will stand up to abuse. If you make it thick enough with a not-so-thin and not-super-acute edge, and temper it back to 56Rc or so, almost any common cutlery steel (including O1 and 1095) will take a heckuva pounding.
 
Last edited:
I am on the fence if I want to HT and temper myself. I certainly want to do it (HT and temper), however my true end goal is MY OWN design and choice of steel for my kukri and it be a quality product.
I am sort of scared that I will spend a lot of time and
energy designing and working blank steel and screw up the HT and temper process lol.

So I wanted as much and advice before I spend the money and all on this project.

Thanks for the continued posts and advice!
 
I would suggest sending it out for HT & use any steel you want
If you want to HT yourself, then 1084 is a much better choice than 1095





Welcome,


I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V19

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, A2,
Or air quenched CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V19 Edited Masks Sept 24, 2011.
 
AtreidesMarine said:
I am on the fence if I want to HT and temper myself. I certainly want to do it (HT and temper), however my true end goal is MY OWN design and choice of steel for my kukri and it be a quality product.
I am sort of scared that I will spend a lot of time and energy designing and working blank steel and screw up the HT and temper process lol.
Click to expand...

That's a sane, reasonable approach with a very high likelihood of success. Here's my advice:
Design your knife to cut the way you want it to cut.
Choose an alloy that will perform well within those parameters. All the steels discussed in this thread will perform well... some better than others, but all are better than the junk you might find at WallyWorld or CanadianTired.
Let a professional firm like Peters' or Bos take care of the HT. Heat-treating is a science unto itself; as you said, there is no sense in screwing up all that time/money with piss-poor HT. There's plenty of time to invest in and explore heat-treating once you've developed your style.
 
Last edited:
The best reason to choose a steel with a lower carbon content over a steel with a higher carbon content is the type of matensite that is formed during the heat treat process. The steels below the eutectoid point (around 0.8%) form lath martensite that is much tougher than the plate martensite formed by the steels with a higher carbon content. This is why steels like 1075, 15N20, 5160, L-6, the S series, and CPM 3V are generally recommended for knives that will have to take a beating.
 
Thanks for that input. It's one thing to be told why to use some steels and the others as opposed to being explained the reasoning for such. I will realign my approach and thinking to my project.

Thank you to all who posted this excellent info to assist me.

I will post more info on what I'll do soon. =)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top