Machine welding 01 to leaf spring steel

J

jaws

Joined
Mar 28, 2016
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13
Hey daywalkers,
Goal - carving axe!
Problem - combining steels... 01 (edge) to 5160 (body) to Mild steel (tang). Via machine

First question, why is it so rare to see someone simply machine weld edge steel on tougher steel blade bodies? It's like everyone prefers to forge 2 pieces of metal together by hand. Aka borax sandwhich.

I have what I presume to be 5160 (leafs off a truck, mystery steel)
I want to put an 01 edge on them.
Even further I want to add a mild steel tang.
My idea: After all three steels are combined, normalize/anneal the heck out of them and then torch heat/oil quench 01 edge only. Then temper the heck out of it. 450°f x 1 hr x3

Thoughts, opinions, jokes, strategies?
 
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I can't weigh in on the machine welding question, however do have a comment on O1. In my experience, it's pretty sensitive to temperature and requires a significant and controlled soak time. A torch just isn't going to do it good enough to make this alloy shine - I really think you would be better off making the cutting edge from 5160 or (even better) something like 1084 if this is how you're going to go about it.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to the coming replies to your questions!
 
You don't see it commonly done because arc welding can do weird things with high carbon steels. I'm sure somebody with more knowledge than I will chime in but I know cracking can happen pretty easily - immediately or delayed (in the welds).

TIG is probably the best bet if you were to do it, though.
 
I'm only going from what I've read, but I think you will have to forge weld it. If I was considering doing something like this (which I have) I would use 1084 or 1095 for the bit and make the rest of the axe out of the truck spring steel. Why complicate with a third steel when you don't have to? I'm assuming you have quite a bit of a leaf spring to consider such a project. Then when you are done weld forging it, heat treat for whatever you've made the bit out of.

Again only an opinion. I have no personal experience to back this up.
 
seanj said:
I'm only going from what I've read, but I think you will have to forge weld it. If I was considering doing something like this (which I have) I would use 1084 or 1095 for the bit and make the rest of the axe out of the truck spring steel. Why complicate with a third steel when you don't have to? I'm assuming you have quite a bit of a leaf spring to consider such a project. Then when you are done weld forging it, heat treat for whatever you've made the bit out of.

Again only an opinion. I have no personal experience to back this up.
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I am glad you asked.
Basically I am getting the third steel from a company that already has premade octagonal shapes milled out for my handle. So I am guessing it will be mild steel. I was hoping someone would look into it enough to ask.

I can go 1084, I am okay with that.
 
allenkey said:
You don't see it commonly done because arc welding can do weird things with high carbon steels. I'm sure somebody with more knowledge than I will chime in but I know cracking can happen pretty easily - immediately or delayed (in the welds).

TIG is probably the best bet if you were to do it, though.
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Tig is what I have at my local "maker barn" in Tomball. Why would tig work better?

And yes if someone could add to forge welding vs machine welding different carbon steels together it would be nice.
 
All knife steels grow after quenching and they shrink during tempering but have net growth. They do not grow and shrink at the same rate. Steels with higher carbon grow more than steels with less carbon. You will have three different “parent metals” along with “filler metal” and areas that are mixed. This will cause a lot of stress along those areas.

High carbon steels do not weld well. If you can get through the welding without it cracking, it will probably work. I just don’t recommend it at all. You’d be better off just making it out of the spring steel, period.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
All knife steels grow after quenching and they shrink during tempering but have net growth. They do not grow and shrink at the same rate. Steels with higher carbon grow more than steels with less carbon. You will have three different “parent metals” along with “filler metal” and areas that are mixed. This will cause a lot of stress along those areas.

High carbon steels do not weld well. If you can get through the welding without it cracking, it will probably work. I just don’t recommend it at all. You’d be better off just making it out of the spring steel, period.

Hoss
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Awesome thanks for the knowledge. One consideration is that either way I am mostly going to have a welded on mild steel tang due to the part I am looking for being factory made commonly in mild/structural steel.

So let's say I am going for a mild to high carbon weld, which high carbon steel takes easily to others + heat treating afterwards?
 
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After further reading in welding forums, it seems that the plain high carbon steels take best to other steel grades simply because the alloys can be what causes the mixing problems. So I am thinking if I choose 1084 or 1095 with my mild steel part I will be okay as long as I have a well preheat as well as a long cool down.
jaws said:
Awesome thanks for the knowledge. One consideration is that either way I am mostly going to have a welded on mild steel tang due to the part I am looking for being factory made commonly in mild/structural steel.

So let's say I am going for a mild to high carbon weld, which high carbon steel takes easily to others + heat treating afterwards?
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As the carbon percentage content rises, steel has the ability to become harder and strongerthrough heat treating; however, it becomes less ductile. Regardless of the heat treatment, a higher carbon content reduces weldability. In carbon steels, the higher carbon content lowers the melting point.[

So basically high carbon steel must be kept hot to be joined with other steels, and the more similar the alloy family the better.
 
TIG offers the greatest level of control over the weld pool - that's why I said it'd probably be best.

If you insist on going through with it to create the slowest cool possible get a bucket of vermiculite and shove it in there after you're done welding. However, I have an feeling that the welds will still probably crack when you harden it. It's just not the same as forge welding no matter what you do.

It seems simple but there is alot going on.

I'd listen to DevinT.
 
And don't forget what the tool is, simply using it will put a lot of stresses on the joints. Even a forge weld can fail if not done properly.
 
allenkey said:
TIG offers the greatest level of control over the weld pool - that's why I said it'd probably be best.

If you insist on going through with it to create the slowest cool possible get a bucket of vermiculite and shove it in there after you're done welding. However, I have an feeling that the welds will still probably crack when you harden it. It's just not the same as forge welding no matter what you do.

It seems simple but there is alot going on.

I'd listen to DevinT.
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Cool, thanks for the suggestion! TIG it is!
 
jaws said:
Would you say forge welds are stronger?
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I'm not going to claim I'm an expert on welding, and it's possible that pipefitters and other folks who do machine welding for a living and are experts may have a better explanation. Having said that, when you forge weld, the entire piece gets up to welding temps and cools down at relatively the same rate, which will help minimize the stresses that can (do?) occur when just welding a bead.
If you think about it, you are melting the steel in the area around the bead, while the rest of the piece stays relatively cooler, causing stresses at the line/border where the steel exceeds critical temps meets the steel that doesn't reach this temp.
Those who have a better explanation, please feel free to correct/clarify as needed.
 
weo said:
I'm not going to claim I'm an expert on welding, and it's possible that pipefitters and other folks who do machine welding for a living and are experts may have a better explanation. Having said that, when you forge weld, the entire piece gets up to welding temps and cools down at relatively the same rate, which will help minimize the stresses that can (do?) occur when just welding a bead.
If you think about it, you are melting the steel in the area around the bead, while the rest of the piece stays relatively cooler, causing stresses at the line/border where the steel exceeds critical temps meets the steel that doesn't reach this temp.
Those who have a better explanation, please feel free to correct/clarify as needed.
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I think that does quite fine for explaining, thank you!
 
I'm not a welder or a metallurgist, by my understanding leads me to believe that a forge weld is stronger than other welding processes (assuming both are done properly) for the same reason that forged steel is stronger than cast.
The fillet on an arc weld is essentially cast steel, which has lower tensile strength because of the lack of linear grain structure, and the corresponding strength axis, as is found in forged/rolled steel.
No doubt someone here knows much more about the subject than I do, and can give better insight, but that's my 2 cents.
I think the best bet for your project would be to make it entirely from 5160, as Hoss said.
 
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