Mad about Mad Dog?

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
3,264
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You'd think this was a religion and politics forum!

I don't quite understand the level of passion in the proliferation of Mad Dog threads - all from a little edge chip, from chopping wood with a knife that was apparently tempered for knife work, not axe work. Or maybe it's from some of the wood chips landing on several people's shoulders.

Can't we all just . . . get along?



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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Agreed! It`s discouraging to read the Mad Dog threads. God spare us from yet another test! This place has become just a little less fun because of all this.

I don`t know how many of you people ever listen to "Car Talk" on Public Radio, but I remember one thing they say time and time again. People will call their show and ask "What do you think about the (insert car name here)?" They`ll always ask, "What do YOU thing about it?" If they say they like it, they`ll say, "Buy it!" Why? Because people buy what they like, regardless of data from the testing says. People are funny like that.

Mad Dog owners love Mad Dogs, Busse owners (and dealers!) love Busse. There is room enough in the marketplace for both to exsist.

Peace go with both camps! Lets beat our ATAKs and Battle Mistresses into ploughshares and study tests no more!
 
James:

My interest in this has nothing to do with a little chip in a big bad blade. My interest is about how values relate to customer satisfaction.

Recently when I bought a Spyderco from a certain forum member named James Mattis
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, I felt confident that customer satisfaction was a higher value in the proceedings than either dealer ego or manufacturer ego.

And I was not let down. (Thanks Mr. Mattis! and thanks, Mr. Glesser!)

All I want to get resolved about MD is whether customer satisfaction is a supreme value there too, or whether it comes in a distant second to manufacturer's ego.

From a customer's perspective, I think that's a reasonable question, and an important one.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Bill (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
I tend to agree with James.

I also agree that the BFC tests are topics of great interest. Spark, perhaps what we need here is a separate Knife Test Forum rather than cluttering up the General Forum with fan reactions.


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Life is a journey, not a guided tour -- GO ARMED!
-->BLADE


 
I dont think its all stirred up simply due to a chipped blade. The fact of the matter is that perhaps we are all to "sensitive" and thin skinned (this is the 90s after all). People do not want to hear the truth. We beg Mike to have these tests, and he does (thanks Mike). Well, newsflash, we dont want the truth. All that is accepted anymore is "feel good, touchy feely crap". That must be why the knife magazines only do fluff reviews, we are much to easily offended if people dont say only good things. If magazines really slammed POS knives like we keep saying we want them to, imagine the attack they would come under. People would accuse them of a conspiracy. Look, the maddog didnt place first, but it didnt place last either, get over it. BTW, I pointed it out earlier, I have heard all the statements about how maddogs are not meant for chopping, well, go to the MD torture tests at www.knifeandtool.com , you will see that they claimed to have chopped with it, and they gave it a perfect score. I guess its ok to chop with it as long as it comes out the way MD wants it to. Here is a scenario for all the conspiracy types, two weeks ago I purchased a knife at a gunshow. Lets say that 2 years down the road Mike wants to test it. I say "gee Mike, I have one of those, I will send it to you to test". Now Mike tests the knife and it chips. Are we gonna accept the fact that it chips, or is the maker gonna start screaming that its a stloen/fake or 2 year old knife. Will Mike be accused of cheating or lying because the knife is 2 years old? Gee, I guess next time I want a knife I will just tell the maker, sorry, im gonna wait a few years 'till your knives aint a POS anymore. Should age have anything to do with it? C'mon, there are Ka-bar, Camillus, and other makes of the USMC knife floating around that are 40 - 50 years old that are still used and perform just fine. I have heard a few statements that Mike used spruce, others use pine. Big deal. I suppose if anybody ever had to chop them selves out of a mess, better hope its not spruce.
 
Thanks for the leadership James.

I like Mad Dog knives AND what I hear about Busse knives, and every other high-quality knife I've ever seen.

And I hope this thread will not be turned into just another opportunity for certain people to say something bad about Mad Dog or his knives, usually by people who have never owned them.
 
James,

This has become an issue of Faith. I'd like to talk on that briefly without going into any discussion of who is right and who is wrong. Do you think that's possible?
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I call it an issue of Faith because it involves a part of some people's world view that would be seriously altered if they concede to the opposite point of view, and they are naturally and fundamentally opposed to doing this. To alter their view would be so disastrous that they will undergo any mental convolutions necessary in order to avoid it and maintain their current view. I want to be clear that this is true for both sides.

I can see four possibilities at this point:

1) Mike and Spark are pathological liars. Perhaps no tests took place at all. Or perhaps there were real test and they were misreported. Maybe they were reported accurately but the chips were made up. All or some of the string of investigations and information presented since then is pure fallacy. Everything they have ever said is thus thrown in doubt, as they clearly see no difference between truth/falsehood except as suits their ends.

2) Kevin and Terry McClung are pathological liars. They invented the "notch=reject" concept in an attempt to save face, and have subsequently concocted the "shop knife" theory and various other information about past employess, missing knives, etc. Everything they have ever said is thus thrown in doubt, as they clearly see no difference between truth/falsehood except as suits their ends.

3) Mike/Spark and Kevin/Terry are all pathological liars. All parties have concocted imaginary and deceptive info on this topic. Everything they have ever said is thus thrown in doubt, as they clearly see no difference between truth/falsehood except as suits their ends. I consider this too unlikely to seriously consider.

4) All parties are telling the truth. The knife in question was, in fact, very old AND a "fake" or "shop knife" that somehow, among thousands of other "real" Mad Dogs, ended up (unwittingly) in Mike's hands for this honest evaluation, in which it chipped.


I think we can discout #3. We'd all like to see #4 be the truth, but I think we also see how improbable that is. So this leaves only two uncomfortable options:

Some people must accept that Mike and Spark are patently and wholly untrustworthy, and everything they have ever said is called into question (Was a 7" test done? Did Benchmade Ascents really fail a spine whack? Is Spark really the same moderator previously attached to knifeforums?)

OR

Some people must accept that the McClungs are patently and wholly untrustworthy, and everything they have ever said is called into question (Are MDs really O1? Does Kevin really grind them? Have there really been hundreds of warranty returns? What about the military contracts?)

Please note!

I am NOT asking you to evaluate which of these is the true situation, and I am certainly not looking for evidence taht some of the "questionable" statements above are true - I know how ridiculous they are to doubt.

I am simply trying to make a point that some people TRUST Mike completely, and some people TRUST Kevin completely, and it would be a harsh and difficult thing for either group to change their views. In fact, we should all be greatly dismayed that the honesty of either should come seriously into question.

This has become an issue of Faith. And yet, I have to wonder... we're not talking about the creation of the universe or the miracle of human self-awareness. we're talking about a bar of steel with some G-10 glued to it. How did this become an issue of Faith???

Your thoughts?


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-Corduroy
"Why else would a bear want a pocket?"

Little Bear Knives
Drew Gleason:
adg@student.umass.edu
 
The facts will speak for themselves. I do not need to write another word to present my case.

I did a simple test. Mad Dog came in forth.

Now when I get a new knife to test will my test results be questioned yet again? Of course they will. Based on my test I think the Mad Dog will only edge out the Falkniven next time if it does not chip but we will see.

Can someome please come see the next test? I am sure one of you members must be within a couple hundred miles
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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!
 
Mike- If you know that your results will questioned again (and undoubtably they will), why do another test? As you said: you did a test, the facts speak for themselves. Let them speak!

Is there anyway this can end without someone losing face?
 
Steve, you raise a great point.

Why are we doing these tests again? Because we want to eliminate any questions of bias. If we didn't care about little things like integrity and honesty, we wouldn't bother redoing them. But, since the questions were brought up, we're more than happy to repeat these tests. After all, we've got nothing to hide and nothing to lose by doing so.

If the knife does better the second time, then that's great. Since the one we have is suppossedly a fake or stolen reject shop knife, the next one should do 2-3 times as well, right?

Since we care about doing the right thing, we're also sending the previously tested ATAK off to a university on Monday for RC testing. That should answer a few questions as well. If it failed heat treating, we'll know for sure then.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
I concur with James. My primary objective on the forums is to learn from you folks. Among other things, I love reading knife tests from fellow enthusiast.

My take on the knife test was that one guy (Mike Turber) decided to gather a bunch of knives together and see how they perform compared to each other. One person, no more no less, decides to rate the MD forth in his personal test. Mike was informed that the knife may be a defective piece that escaped QC. Mike is willing to repeat his tests with a non-defective one.

That's it. The problem comes from people having and making unreasonable inferences based on these events, sometimes extrapolating and blowing things out of proportion. And it's BS.

Honor and integrity is more important to me than allegiance to anyone or anything. In fact, on the forums, I have none. So, I don't think I am biased when I say that Mike's tests and assessments are fair. But we also need to take it for what it is: One man's personal tests and assessments.

Beats me why it's getting so many people worked up?
 
Despite being a moderator, and despite being one who cherishes the whole concept of sharing cutlery experiences, be they personal mini-reviews or comparative testing as has been recently conducted, I find myself less and less willing to wade through the rhetoric. I value certain characteristics in those with whom I interact with. Among knife dealers and makers I've found personal integrity, an ego which provides a willingness to try the new or modify the old, and a sense of humor all to be paramount. Those with, I choose to deal with; those without I avoid.

Now what follows is not a personal attack at all, but rather my reasons for avoiding involvement save this post. As a now retired Navy Supply Corps officer, I had third hand knowledge of the MadDog SEAL contract fiasco at the time... the facts of which have never been disputed. I have also observed Kevin's conduct on KFC. So much for personal integrity and ego.

Willing to overlook the near decade old debacle, over a year ago I did acquire a Pygmy ATAK2 but subsequently sold it after 9 days. It simply didn't float my boat. I also had considered a Lab Rat but opted out. And my eldest son has an ATAK2 given him by Doc Welch. My son is quite happy with it. But at this point I personally could care less about Kevin or his knives. Darrel Ralph is concerned about Kevin and his knives adversely reflecting on custom makers. Les Robertson and most of the rest of us don't consider McClung's work custom so not to worry.

Bottomline is that I have no use for the histronics that tend to accompany the mention of MadDog. I'm also reminded of the truth to the saying that "methinks thou doest protest too much" means there is undoubtedly fire causing all that smoke. So I'll continue to keep my distance until the smoke clears.

To those who can't follow my thoughts here and may tend to see them as a slam against MD despite my preamble, here it is again, as blunt as I can make it: I've upped my standards, so up yours!

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-=[Bob Allman]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute
......... Varmint Hunters Association
......... National Rifle Association
......... Praire Thunder Inc.
......... Rapid City Rifle Club
......... Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club
pending: Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!


[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 08 November 1999).]
 
The interesting thing about this for me is how thoroughly folks get their knickers in a twist over some seriously butt-ugly knives (IMHO,of course
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).

Actually, it's sort of fun. It reminds me of the Atari vs Amiga wars on the pre WWW internet. Hours and billions of bits spent hashing over the various fine points of the: machines, software, companies, company executives, their families. The PC and Mac folks have tried to generate the same sort of heat, but it was harder - what with their machines actually being different and all. Oh, how boring things have been since 1990. Golly, I have to stop now, I'm getting a little misty.

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Matt Harildstad
Knifemaker
www.planet.eon.net/~matth
matth@planet.eon.net

 
Macs still rule if you actually get some good looking work done w/o having to have an IT department along for the ride, but wait, doesn't Apple have a monoploy on Macintoshes?

Having Windows be so dominant is something I actually like. How else would I be able to gauge the spread of mediocrity. I just lost my timeline for mediocrity when Oregon State football posted its first winning season in 29 years.

Anyways, Microsoft happens to make many fine computer programs, unfortunately for the world, none of them happens to be a good operating system.

AS far as MD being an issue of faith: we all know who the false prophet is.

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Never confuse movement with action.

Ernest Hemingway
 
I do not own a MADDOG. I do not know Kevin McClung. I do not know Mike or Spark. I *do* know attitude- and who uses which kind. I came to BFC in the first wave from KFC- and I only go back to KFC once every 3 months or so. Why? Attitude. Good info can be had there, and bad. But the overall attitude just plain *SUCKS*.
If I may drop a suggestion (and a piece of advice): Mike and Spark, drop the whole issue. Forget the test, the argument, the whole thing. It's not worth my time and energy, and it definately is not worth yours or Kevin's.
A real man knows when to walk away from an argument, and a fool will press the issue. Let this subject die here, now, and on to better and bigger things.
Oh, and Mike.....


Drop the chalupa.
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*************************
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
-Derek Bok

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James,
Thanks for, I hope, a safe haven to speak on this.
I have been at BF.C since the start, I kick around KF.C, and I basically lurk rec.knives. That has been a lot of knife words to read. I have never seen as much a do about a review as this.
Ooooops, it broke..... big deal, let the chips fall where they may. So to speak.
I fall in the Bald1 catagory. Heard about MD.... Interacted with MR. MD (not a fun time)....... Handled MD...... Not impressed enough to ever spend the money on an MD.

Read the test results, move on.

 
Corduroy, How about option # 3.95???
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smile.gif
I'd have to agree with James Mattis, Steve B., SB, and Matt Harildstad on this one. Sure, I'm as much of a Fiend for a Good Read as all of my other fellow Drama Junkies out there
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, BUT whether the tests are valid or invalid, I think what my esteemed colleagues have said here still holds true for the majority.
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Test?! Test?!

There was a test and nobody told me? Sheesh!
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Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.


 
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