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Mad Dog Knives
- Thread starter JJC2
- Start date
- Joined
- May 8, 1999
- Messages
- 759
If you can afford 'em, you can't go wrong with a Mad Dog. Or a Busse for that matter! I have one of each, and swear by them both.
------------------
"They sicken of the calm, who know the storm."
RFrost5746@aol.com or Robert_Frost@ars.aon.com
------------------
"They sicken of the calm, who know the storm."
RFrost5746@aol.com or Robert_Frost@ars.aon.com
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,022
My view is this: he's REAL good at utility knives in the 7" and under range, and he makes some of the best balanced medium to large fighters in existance.
The Panther is pure sex in steel.
The ATAK and variants (DSU/WSP types) are excellent single edge fighters that double as great utility knives. Their flexibility is unmatched genius.
I personally think the one attempt he did at a large pure utility knife fell flat. The TUSK just doesn't float my personal boat. Second, you need to realize that his 9" and greater blades sometimes don't survive heat-treat; they can fail due to warping. That plus the need to totally hand-grind every detail is what radically raises the prices on the 9" and greater series.
There have been TUSKs that broke. Two of 'em, and Cliff broke both, per his claims under heavy use. There are some serious differences of opinion as to how it happened and it's not worth rehashing here...he is VERY credible, so is Kevin Mclung. Kevin freely admits that he's taking the heat-treat to a point very close to the edge of what the steel is capable of. We know he sometimes gets warping - BUT he throws away anything with even a hint of warp; nobody has ever seen a finished sold warped Mad Dog. In my opinion, the great TUSK debate doesn't matter. For the money, the ATAK is capable and a better dual-use piece even if it is 2" shorter than a TUSK.
So far as I am aware Cliff's TUSK saga was the only complaint anyone has ever had about any Mad Dog.
As to the Pygmy ATAK: it's tough as nails, but to me the full 7" ATAK just "feels better" in the hand. That was the original, it's excellent, it feels "alive". The Pygmy just feels a bit "stubby"...I've seen more "for sale" ads on Pygmies than most others. If you can pack the 7" I'd recommend it, it just FEELS right.
Jim March (owner of a WSP1 variant of the ATAK, same blade, unusual serration pattern.)
[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 13 October 1999).]
The Panther is pure sex in steel.
The ATAK and variants (DSU/WSP types) are excellent single edge fighters that double as great utility knives. Their flexibility is unmatched genius.
I personally think the one attempt he did at a large pure utility knife fell flat. The TUSK just doesn't float my personal boat. Second, you need to realize that his 9" and greater blades sometimes don't survive heat-treat; they can fail due to warping. That plus the need to totally hand-grind every detail is what radically raises the prices on the 9" and greater series.
There have been TUSKs that broke. Two of 'em, and Cliff broke both, per his claims under heavy use. There are some serious differences of opinion as to how it happened and it's not worth rehashing here...he is VERY credible, so is Kevin Mclung. Kevin freely admits that he's taking the heat-treat to a point very close to the edge of what the steel is capable of. We know he sometimes gets warping - BUT he throws away anything with even a hint of warp; nobody has ever seen a finished sold warped Mad Dog. In my opinion, the great TUSK debate doesn't matter. For the money, the ATAK is capable and a better dual-use piece even if it is 2" shorter than a TUSK.
So far as I am aware Cliff's TUSK saga was the only complaint anyone has ever had about any Mad Dog.
As to the Pygmy ATAK: it's tough as nails, but to me the full 7" ATAK just "feels better" in the hand. That was the original, it's excellent, it feels "alive". The Pygmy just feels a bit "stubby"...I've seen more "for sale" ads on Pygmies than most others. If you can pack the 7" I'd recommend it, it just FEELS right.
Jim March (owner of a WSP1 variant of the ATAK, same blade, unusual serration pattern.)
[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 13 October 1999).]
To my knowlege,no one has tried it,but Cliff.As you say,they are both credible,and if you read carefully,the apparent discrepancies dissappear.They just got into an ego contest.Of course, they will both be angry with me now.
[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 13 October 1999).]
[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 13 October 1999).]
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Ghostsix :
There have been other similar problems, some described on the forums (Chris John, Will Kwan), and some have been related to me in email including gross failures similar to what I saw. No you are not going to see MD discuss these problems, nor those with complaints going to voice them openly in his forum, the reasons for that are obvious. The failures that happened are not the real issue anyway, there is the potential for that with any knife which is why you should never trust a knife (or anything else) to do something unless you have done it. The problem comes with how the failures were dealt with and the attitude of the maker as to how his knives should be used.
As for an ATAK vs TUSK, there is no comparison geometry wise regarding utility. The major issue would be balance (the ATAK is neutral, the TUSK is blade heavy) , but mass and length heavily favor the TUSK as well. There is also a difference in the grip and point, with the TUSK having the advantge in both areas. The geometry on a TUSK (grip as well as blade) is nothing short of exceptional. In fact if you were to face off the common big bowies (TUSK, Trailmaster, Battle Mistress, etc.), I would expect the TUSk to be the easy favorite under low stress work. The only reason I don't have one made identical to it by someone else is because it would not be fair to McClung to simply copy his design. I am still trying to figure out a solution to that problem. The best I have come up with so far is to describe the performance I want in detail to the maker and see if they create the design.
Nah, it takes more than that to make me angry Ghost. Of course I get thirsty real easy. If I am ever down your way you owe me a case or two.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 October 1999).]
There have been other similar problems, some described on the forums (Chris John, Will Kwan), and some have been related to me in email including gross failures similar to what I saw. No you are not going to see MD discuss these problems, nor those with complaints going to voice them openly in his forum, the reasons for that are obvious. The failures that happened are not the real issue anyway, there is the potential for that with any knife which is why you should never trust a knife (or anything else) to do something unless you have done it. The problem comes with how the failures were dealt with and the attitude of the maker as to how his knives should be used.
As for an ATAK vs TUSK, there is no comparison geometry wise regarding utility. The major issue would be balance (the ATAK is neutral, the TUSK is blade heavy) , but mass and length heavily favor the TUSK as well. There is also a difference in the grip and point, with the TUSK having the advantge in both areas. The geometry on a TUSK (grip as well as blade) is nothing short of exceptional. In fact if you were to face off the common big bowies (TUSK, Trailmaster, Battle Mistress, etc.), I would expect the TUSk to be the easy favorite under low stress work. The only reason I don't have one made identical to it by someone else is because it would not be fair to McClung to simply copy his design. I am still trying to figure out a solution to that problem. The best I have come up with so far is to describe the performance I want in detail to the maker and see if they create the design.
Nah, it takes more than that to make me angry Ghost. Of course I get thirsty real easy. If I am ever down your way you owe me a case or two.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 October 1999).]
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,022
Hmmmm. I didn't know about the other failures. I guess one reason I "tuned out" of the whole discussion is that to me, the TUSK grip seems "large and clunky". I dunno, I guess some people like that "big grip feel"...NOT me. The ATAK/Panther grip feels perfect in my XL-glove-size hands.
Maybe on the TUSK Kevin needs to go just a wee bit less gonzo on the heat treat? Bring the edge down to, what, about 60ish Rockwell? 61 mebbe?
Cliff, a question: what do you feel the TUSK geometry/feel offers that you can't get from picking the right HI Khukuri? My impression is that at less than 1/4th the price, some exceed the TUSK's performance in "heavy chores"...?
Jim
Maybe on the TUSK Kevin needs to go just a wee bit less gonzo on the heat treat? Bring the edge down to, what, about 60ish Rockwell? 61 mebbe?
Cliff, a question: what do you feel the TUSK geometry/feel offers that you can't get from picking the right HI Khukuri? My impression is that at less than 1/4th the price, some exceed the TUSK's performance in "heavy chores"...?
Jim
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Jim, the grip is suited to a specific type of work. Kevin has described that it was modified from the original grip (a Panther's) for exactly this reason. By the way, if you think the TUSK's grip is a bit bulky, its too bad you don't live nearby, the grip on the Salyan khukuri dwarfs it. You will find the grip size on the HI's khukuris change significantly in a similar manner. The larger heavier khukuris have much thicker grips than the smaller ones.
Regarding bowies/khukuris. A big bowie like the TUSK with a significant drop feels much like a khukuri in hand which is no surprise as the primary advantage of a khukuri is the blade angle. I have been using the Battle Mistress of late and comparing it to my 18" Ang Khola which has a similar blade length. Which one I would want on me primarily would depend on how much of what I planned on doing.
I should correct this, there is the fact that the 18" AK is a proven blade and I have no doubts about its performance or Bill standing behind it. Until I reach the same level of confidence in the Battle Mistress I would always pick the AK every time if I needed to depend on the blade. I don't forsee any problems with the BM but until I have been there and done that I just will not personally feel confident, that's just me.
Anyway, that is not really the point which is there is a significant performance differences between the two. The geometries are different which mean each will be better at certain things. To be specific, when I looked at the first TUSK and compared it to my 15" AK, the TUSK had stronger low impact penetration and worked much better at brush clearing and any slicing work (its thinner primarily). The AK was stronger, tougher and would handle high-impact chopping better (would not bind) with less fatigue and wrist / hand strain.
Back to the Battle Mistress and 18" AK. I had both out yesterday and felled a few trees, limbed them out, sectioned up the limbs and trees and then pointed a few 4 foot sections. The khukuri would handle all the heavy chopping much easier, especially felling the trees in the first place, which is the most difficult part. The BM would do most everything else easier and I have done a fair amount of food prep. with it that would be very awkward with my 18" AK. Of course my 20" Sirupati limbs out trees and in general clears brush better than the BM, however as the chopping gets heavier the BM would pull ahead.
There are also other advantages to not having the drastic khukuri curve. On Jeff Randall's forum there is discussion about how in thick vegetation the blade can be hard to get out where as a staighter blade can be easier to work with. I don't do much of this often, but it does occasionally come up.
-Cliff
Regarding bowies/khukuris. A big bowie like the TUSK with a significant drop feels much like a khukuri in hand which is no surprise as the primary advantage of a khukuri is the blade angle. I have been using the Battle Mistress of late and comparing it to my 18" Ang Khola which has a similar blade length. Which one I would want on me primarily would depend on how much of what I planned on doing.
I should correct this, there is the fact that the 18" AK is a proven blade and I have no doubts about its performance or Bill standing behind it. Until I reach the same level of confidence in the Battle Mistress I would always pick the AK every time if I needed to depend on the blade. I don't forsee any problems with the BM but until I have been there and done that I just will not personally feel confident, that's just me.
Anyway, that is not really the point which is there is a significant performance differences between the two. The geometries are different which mean each will be better at certain things. To be specific, when I looked at the first TUSK and compared it to my 15" AK, the TUSK had stronger low impact penetration and worked much better at brush clearing and any slicing work (its thinner primarily). The AK was stronger, tougher and would handle high-impact chopping better (would not bind) with less fatigue and wrist / hand strain.
Back to the Battle Mistress and 18" AK. I had both out yesterday and felled a few trees, limbed them out, sectioned up the limbs and trees and then pointed a few 4 foot sections. The khukuri would handle all the heavy chopping much easier, especially felling the trees in the first place, which is the most difficult part. The BM would do most everything else easier and I have done a fair amount of food prep. with it that would be very awkward with my 18" AK. Of course my 20" Sirupati limbs out trees and in general clears brush better than the BM, however as the chopping gets heavier the BM would pull ahead.
There are also other advantages to not having the drastic khukuri curve. On Jeff Randall's forum there is discussion about how in thick vegetation the blade can be hard to get out where as a staighter blade can be easier to work with. I don't do much of this often, but it does occasionally come up.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 340
JJC2,
Check out the forums, especially the Mad Dog
forum, for feedback on the Pygmy. I feel
Jim March summed things up well w/regard to
the ATAK/Pygmy ATAK. Personally I would
(and do) favor an ATAK for a hiking knife.
Everything is done right on this knife.
People are passionate about Mad Dogs and
from the forums you may get the idea that
one is either a sycophant or a detractor and
there is no middle ground. Get some "hands
on" time with any ATAK variant and decide
for yourself. I don't think you can find a
better knife for your application.
Mark
Check out the forums, especially the Mad Dog
forum, for feedback on the Pygmy. I feel
Jim March summed things up well w/regard to
the ATAK/Pygmy ATAK. Personally I would
(and do) favor an ATAK for a hiking knife.
Everything is done right on this knife.
People are passionate about Mad Dogs and
from the forums you may get the idea that
one is either a sycophant or a detractor and
there is no middle ground. Get some "hands
on" time with any ATAK variant and decide
for yourself. I don't think you can find a
better knife for your application.
Mark
- Joined
- Oct 23, 1998
- Messages
- 160
Make sure you buy your Mad Dog new from an authorized dealer or your warranty will not be honored.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
I really like Kevin McClung's knives myself. Everything from blade geometry to ergonomics to handle design, to steel and heat treatment, it all works for me. My only reservation about Mad Dog knives is that they are usually made out of .25" stock, which is thicker than a civilian like me needs. That is why my favorite Mad Dog is the Lab Rat, which is made from 1/8" stock. I have heard rumors of 3/16" Pygmy ATAKs too, but I think very few were made.
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 3,022
I'm going to have to disagree with Steve on this. Because due to the flat-grind removing a LOT of metal, the .25" stock is NOT as bulky as you'd expect even on the single-edge pieces like the ATAK. On the double-edge pieces, it's not really 1/4" at all; in effect, he "starts" with a piece of 1/4" steel to make, say, a Panther...but once he grinds the prime edge all the way from spine to edge and then grinds the false edge after, the majority of the blade length is NO LONGER 1/4" stock. This is true of all his secondary edge knives for the blade length where there's a second edge; only on the single-edge area is there still 1/4" of metal at the spine.
Jim
Jim
How the MD holds up depends on what you define hard use as. If the Pygmy ATAK is similar to my ATAK2, it should hold up to hard chopping on wood fine.
Edge retention, erogonomics, and the sheath are excellent on my ATAK2. As long as I limit myself to wood the ATAK2 edge remains sharp longer than any other blade I own. The handle is a feels slippery compared to say a MPKS but I have never had any problems with my hand sliding on the handle or hot spots.
The main weakness I found on my ATAK2 is that the edge and tip are not very durable. I bent the tip by stabbing and twisting the knife in a 2x4. I definitely did not hit anything more solid than perhaps a knot. The blade can be made to chip by apply direct lateral force to the very edge. The edge will chip rather than give.
Do a search for a review by Bob a.k.a. Bald1 on the Pygmy ATAK. He mades many valid points about the knife.
Will
[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 14 October 1999).]
Edge retention, erogonomics, and the sheath are excellent on my ATAK2. As long as I limit myself to wood the ATAK2 edge remains sharp longer than any other blade I own. The handle is a feels slippery compared to say a MPKS but I have never had any problems with my hand sliding on the handle or hot spots.
The main weakness I found on my ATAK2 is that the edge and tip are not very durable. I bent the tip by stabbing and twisting the knife in a 2x4. I definitely did not hit anything more solid than perhaps a knot. The blade can be made to chip by apply direct lateral force to the very edge. The edge will chip rather than give.
Do a search for a review by Bob a.k.a. Bald1 on the Pygmy ATAK. He mades many valid points about the knife.
Will
[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 14 October 1999).]
JJC2,
Here's a quote from a 4/99 thread of mine in the knife review area. The full pATAK2 review was on KFC but unfortunately is no longer available there:
Topic: Mission 10" MPK-S received
bald1
Moderator
posted 26 April 1999 08:38 PM
FIRST IMPRESSIONS:
I received my long awaited Mission MPK or multi-purpose knife in A2 steel today. I
picked the middle of the line length which is 10 3/8" overall. I also opted for a
plain non-partially serrated edge and the new aluminum titanium nitride particle
vapor deposited coating. This coating is said to be state of the art with improved
wear characteristics.
The blade measures 5 5/8" with the bulk of this length sporting a sharpened
edge. It is a classic V grind with a deep belly curve which at its widest point
measures a width of 1 1/2 inches. This is all out of 1/4" A2 stock. RC is said to be
56 for best balance of flexibility, edge retention, etc. I have no information about
heat treating to include any zone tempering or special quenching.
The handle is made of kevlar/hytrel and has a great feel with a fine pebble
surface that has a series of grooves on each side. The pommel is shaped
conducive for pounding tasks. It is cast or molded to the tang and exhibits
virtually no flash from the process. The edge exhibited good grind lines and
decent sharpness although, as with 99.9% of knives I receive, not as sharp as I
prefer and will make it ! The sheath is an outstanding classic military
ambidextrous multi-carry design from Scott Evans of Edge-Works. On the right
side of the blade the letters MPKS appear with MISSION underneath. The lettering
is in a gold which adds a nice touch to this solid knife.
Some will recall my having acquired a MadDog pATAK2 late last year which I
subsequently sold after 9 days of ownership. I sold it because it didn't quite meet
my needs. It was slightly smaller than the MPKS at 9.1" overall length and with a
4.9" blade. One of my complaints was that the serrations were poor and the choil
design eliminated a good inch and a quarter from having an edge. A 9 inch knife
with barely 3.5 inches of combo edge costing $330 simply didn't pass my sanity
check. Overall I found insufficient cutting edge to comfortably work with although
the handle's ergonomics and overall feel were laudatory.
Well in the MPKS I have what I wanted last year . A brute of a knife with great
handle material and ergonomics. Better yet a blade with sufficient edge, edge
geometry, and belly. It too looks to be a mini-pry bar but in a size that suits me
much better than the slightly smaller pATAK.
Over the next few weeks I intend to see how the MPKS's A2 steel, AlTiNi coating,
handle and sheath perform. But from first impressions, this is a great package for
$210! I'll keep ya'll posted!!!!
-------------------------------------------
BTW The new owner loves his pATAK2 and carries it in his vehicle as an emergency response tool. Different strokes for different folks
!
------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute
......... Varmint Hunters Association
......... National Rifle Association
......... Praire Thunder Inc.
......... Rapid City Rifle Club
......... Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club
pending: Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 14 October 1999).]
Here's a quote from a 4/99 thread of mine in the knife review area. The full pATAK2 review was on KFC but unfortunately is no longer available there:
Topic: Mission 10" MPK-S received
bald1
Moderator
posted 26 April 1999 08:38 PM
FIRST IMPRESSIONS:
I received my long awaited Mission MPK or multi-purpose knife in A2 steel today. I
picked the middle of the line length which is 10 3/8" overall. I also opted for a
plain non-partially serrated edge and the new aluminum titanium nitride particle
vapor deposited coating. This coating is said to be state of the art with improved
wear characteristics.
The blade measures 5 5/8" with the bulk of this length sporting a sharpened
edge. It is a classic V grind with a deep belly curve which at its widest point
measures a width of 1 1/2 inches. This is all out of 1/4" A2 stock. RC is said to be
56 for best balance of flexibility, edge retention, etc. I have no information about
heat treating to include any zone tempering or special quenching.
The handle is made of kevlar/hytrel and has a great feel with a fine pebble
surface that has a series of grooves on each side. The pommel is shaped
conducive for pounding tasks. It is cast or molded to the tang and exhibits
virtually no flash from the process. The edge exhibited good grind lines and
decent sharpness although, as with 99.9% of knives I receive, not as sharp as I
prefer and will make it ! The sheath is an outstanding classic military
ambidextrous multi-carry design from Scott Evans of Edge-Works. On the right
side of the blade the letters MPKS appear with MISSION underneath. The lettering
is in a gold which adds a nice touch to this solid knife.
Some will recall my having acquired a MadDog pATAK2 late last year which I
subsequently sold after 9 days of ownership. I sold it because it didn't quite meet
my needs. It was slightly smaller than the MPKS at 9.1" overall length and with a
4.9" blade. One of my complaints was that the serrations were poor and the choil
design eliminated a good inch and a quarter from having an edge. A 9 inch knife
with barely 3.5 inches of combo edge costing $330 simply didn't pass my sanity
check. Overall I found insufficient cutting edge to comfortably work with although
the handle's ergonomics and overall feel were laudatory.
Well in the MPKS I have what I wanted last year . A brute of a knife with great
handle material and ergonomics. Better yet a blade with sufficient edge, edge
geometry, and belly. It too looks to be a mini-pry bar but in a size that suits me
much better than the slightly smaller pATAK.
Over the next few weeks I intend to see how the MPKS's A2 steel, AlTiNi coating,
handle and sheath perform. But from first impressions, this is a great package for
$210! I'll keep ya'll posted!!!!
-------------------------------------------
BTW The new owner loves his pATAK2 and carries it in his vehicle as an emergency response tool. Different strokes for different folks
------------------
-=[Bob Allman]=-
I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!
BFC member since the very beginning
Member: American Knife & Tool Institute
......... Varmint Hunters Association
......... National Rifle Association
......... Praire Thunder Inc.
......... Rapid City Rifle Club
......... Spearfish Rifle & Pistol Club
pending: Buck Collectors Club (prime interest: 532s)
Certified Talonite(r) enthusiast!
[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 14 October 1999).]