Mad Dog Lab Rat #007 is OK!

Samurai6 · Jun 2, 1999

Well Cliff's experience with the TUSK stuck a burr under my saddle about the durability of the edges of Mad Dog Knives so I had to check it out for myself. The only Mad Dog I have around to evaluate is a Lab Rat, the skinny runt of the Mad Dog litter.

There is no question that my Lab Rat is representative of Mad Dog heat treatment. The slip sheath has polished the blade until the temper line is very conspicuous. It runs parallel to the medial line of the blade, about 3/8" from the edge. The temper line intersects with the edge where the edge turns up toward the tip, about 3/4" from the tip. The edge is definately harder than the balance of the blade. From what I remember reading, Mad Dog estimates that his blades quench out at around 63 RcH, and he then draws back the spine to something in the low to mid 50's.

So being the inquisitive sort that I am, I did a California version of Cliff's test. I drove the edge horizontally into the narrow side of an interior grade pine 2X8, using a stick as a driver. I drove it in right about to the temper line which took a fair amount of hammering. The knife was wedged in tightly. So then I started flexing the handle up and down. I would have to characterize the flexing as gentle to moderate. The Lab Rat blade is only 1/8" thick, and I know I could put a permanent bend in it if I wanted to. I would estimate that the blade was deflecting about 15 degrees from horizontal in each direction. Eventually the board's grip on the blade loosened from the flexing, and the blade would slip out. I repeated this three times.

To see if I could do something useful and stressful, I drove the blade in about 1/4" at a 45 degree down angle, then made another cut at a 45 degree up angle a few inches lower on the board. Then I pushed the blade back into the top cut and twisted out a couple of fair sized chips. The edge was not damaged or affected in any way. I could feel no lip or burr, and it still sort of shaved, I think what us sharpening geeks call "hair scraping" sharp, which is where the edge was when I started.

I do not mean this to be any sort of indication as to what happened to Cliff's knife. It was about 50 F here in San Jose this morning when I did the fooling around (too half-assed to be called a test).

So I rest assured. Mad Dog Lab Rat #007 appears to be a strong little knife. In actual use, I would not intensionally put this much lateral force on a blade this thin. Again, I don't intend to say that this resolves anything regarding the suitability of the TUSK for the use that Cliff put it too. I only mean to say that other Mad Dog owners can rest assured that their knives will not be damaged by moderate abuse if my Lab Rat is representative, which I think it is.

Harv

Sid Post · Jun 1, 1999

Harv,

Your test/report alludes to statements I have made with regards to this same issue. Most users will never use a knife to its mechanical limits doing knife things. Buy a quality knife, made with quality materials, from someone who know what they are doing. You, the purchaser have an obligation to select a blade that is appropriate for the task at hand. Using my T H Rinaldi TTKK to open ammo crates is not really a fair test or appropriate use for this knife IMHO. An A-2 1/4" flat ground blade would be preferred over the TTKK. Back in the kitchen or out in the yard doing light utility work, the TTKK would work better. Select the right tool for the job if you can. For the vast majority of users at large, issues like this will never come up. When you go to the extreme, that is where the heated discussions begin.....right or wrong. Fortuantely, this is not an issue for most people.

Sid

sing · Jun 2, 1999

Harv,

If I were a Lab Rat owner, I would be breathing a sign of relief and thanking you. Well, I thank you anyways... for putting your knife on the line whether than leaving others wondering.

sing

Samurai6 · Jun 2, 1999

I wonder if I should repeat the trial after leaving the knife in my freezer over night?

What's a freezer, maybe 25 degrees F? That doesn't seem too scary.

Bad idea, or good?

Harv

sing · Jun 3, 1999

Harv,

You can if you want to but why? You live in the Bay Area where it ain't never going to get that cold. You seem to have proven the lab rat can take what you want it to do under the conditions you "normally" find yourself in. Are you planning a visit to Alaska with the lab rat?

Cliff, on the hand, lives in Canada where he likes it 0 degree or lower.

Plus, as we all know, he likes to take his equipment to the brink of what he thinks/believes the maker/manufacturer purports the knife is capable of.

Samurai6 · Jun 5, 1999

Well, I left the Lab Rat in my freezer overnight last night and repeated the above trials this morning. I regret telling you all that the results of the test were somewhat different...the handle was all covered with condensation. That is all. No damage, just a cold, damp knife.

One other thing I learned from this experiment, the Lab Rat may be too light to make an effective chopper on its own, but if you pound on it with a chunk of wood, you can make pretty rapid progress. It is a much faster method than chopping with just the knife itself.

The Lab Rat is the thinnest, least robust, Mad Dog knife. If I can pound it into a board when the blade is at well below zero Centigrade and flex it back and forth without breaking it, the big quarter inch knives should be quite reliable.

The flexing I did was not extreme, but it was in the neighborhood of as much as one can safely expect without doing any damage. I flexed the blade to the point where if what I am prying against ain't moving, I better stop before I destroy a good knife. It was more than I believe I would have accidentally subjected the knife to during even extreme chopping, cutting, etc.

Lab Rat #007 is still OK, but c,c,coold.

Harv

Cliff Stamp · Jun 4, 1999

No surprise there Steve, the Ontario Bolo (1095 uniform temper) was thinner than the TUSK (.20"), with a wider blade, and I could step on it with the blade in a 4x4 until the handle bent and the blade did not crack.

-Cliff

Samurai6 · Jun 4, 1999

That's true, but does that tell us something more than that the Ontarios bent before they broke?

The important fact for me is that the Lab Rat neither bent or broke under reasonable force. I only intended to assure myself that the temper line on my knife is not a ticking time-bomb, and I have done that quite thoroughly.

It is conceivable to need to rely on the toughness of a blade, but isn't it just as conceivable to need to rely on the sharpness?

Of course that's all from a guy whose only Mad Dog currently is a Lab Rat, and who has no use for an ATAK, let alone a kukri with a half inch spine. I do own an axe though.

Harv

Cliff Stamp · Jun 7, 1999

Steve, the Ontario bolo bent because I walked on the handle. It showed no damage from similar stress that fractured the TUSK. In fact the heavier prying tests I did on the Ontarios were done with only the edge supporting the pull. The thin Bolo took a deadlift body position to break, the TUSK took a perm bend with a double arm pull to the side and it lost a big piece out of the edge with a single forearm pressdown. Go into a gym and see just how different these lifts are in terms of power. They are not even in the same league.

I do own an axe though.

So do I, that does not mean I have no use for a large knife. I also have a chainsaw, that does not mean I have no use for an axe. I also own sissors, that does not mean I have no use for a light use knife.

Large knives (10-12") offer significant advantages over an axe/chainsaw in certain situations just like a nice thin knife is better than a good pair of sissors in certain aspects.

Also, contrary to popular belief, a dedicated wood chopping axe is very thin. It does not look like the wedged utility axes you buy at Canadian Tire. It will be hollow ground out to a very shallow profile and it will be very hard. You can chop down trees all day long with only a few rubs with a stone during breaks, and that is only necessary if you happen to hit a few hard knots.

My father grew up clearing wood with axes like these and when I asked him if he every broke one he looked at me like I was retarded. And yes, he hit them on occasion. (they make lousy splitters as they are so thin so you have to use a heavy maul to drive them through wood). He also used them to split open logs by jamming the edge in and walking/jumping on the handle (framework usually).

-Cliff