Maker Submarines Resale of Own Knives?

J

jbravo

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How's this one: a collector posts for sale a very expensive custom knife from a very famous maker. A prospective buyer calls the maker to get some background on the very rare knife in question before committing to spend a few thou on it. The maker deflects the question by saying words to the effect of "I'll make you an even nicer version if you order it from me". The buyer is undecided until he realizes that 1) the maker has a long, long waiting list, 2) the maker is an older gentleman whose age already puts him at about the average lifespan of an American male, and, 3) neither one may outlive the waiting list time period. So, for the price of the deposit, the maker nearly wrecks the re-sale of his own work.

Does this strike anyone as wrong? Remember, the maker already has years and years of orders yet to be made...
 
I think the maker is just offereing an different oppotunity on the price vs availability curve.

It's up to the possible buyer to decide where they are comfortable.

However if you are the seller in this case, I could see being a bit grumpy about it.
 
I'm not sure it's wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's abysmally stupid - unless the maker has a pressing need for cash. Makers who care about their long term legacy should be helpful to collectors attempting to sell their pieces. This is true whether the maker is young or old.

I have been in a situation recently when a maker helped me sell one of his knives. I gave him a % for his help (he didn't accept as much as I wanted to give), and he brokered the sale. Result? An easy few bucks for him, a happy collector, and a happy former customer who is therefore much more likely to ever buy again from him. It's a win-win-win.
 
I know a lot of arguements can be made in a lot of different directions, but it would sour me on the maker and on any of this maker's work that's out there. A guy wants info on a particular knife and you have a long wait list, just be a stand-up guy and answer his questions instead of making a complicated dilemna out of the whole thing.

Lately, I've been disappointed in a few makers out there who, in the past, I considered class acts and classic makers. The two that I'm thinking of have been around a long time, know what they're doing with their pricing policies and have recently chosen to hike their prices to the highest level that today's market will bear. I'm talking about doubling and tripling their prices of just a couple years ago. As an example, knives that were $1100 to $1200 two years ago, now pushing $3000. Many of you will say that's fine, take what you can get. To me, it's a sure sign of a maker who has decided that it's pushing retirement time and he'll just gouge the market until something gives. He'll take what he can get until the show is over for whatever reason. He knows full well that the market can change and he may someday be unable to command the currently hyped prices that he's getting. He knows that those buying his knives might take losses when they sell in the future. He's decided that he's a "short-timer" now and he doesn't care. I saw one of these makers at the last Chicago show. He mentioned that he hadn't heard from me in a while and I remarked that I'm not a buyer for his knives at the current prices. I also said that I believed those buying his knives now are strictly investors and making a risky investment at that. His reply was, "well, it's good for me". Yes, it is. If you're a short timer.

Pete
 
good post. I agree with Pete.

I think they should take a cue from Kit Carson - his table prices are $500-600 and have been there for such a long time. He certainly deserves to charge more, but he doesn't. I wish he took orders but no more.
 
If it were me, I would be upset that he deflected the question instead of providing me with the information that I requested. I would have no problem with the maker offering to make me a nicer knife, as long as he fully filled me in on the knife I was interested in purchasing. That way I would have a couple of options.

A maker should do everything possible to support the aftermarket for his knives.
 
is Jess Horn. His knives have recently spiked up very high on the aftermarket. To the point where it's hard to get a nice one even if you ARE willing to pay up. Aftermarket prices for his knives have basically doubled in the past year. As of about 4 to 6 months ago, Jess quit taking new orders or making any other committments to supply knives. His prices have only increased by $100 or $200 per knife over the last couple years, just the periodic increase that he's normally done. In order to be fair and try to fill all standing orders, he cut his show schedule down to just the Solvang show. He's only doing that one in order to keep a presence in the knife community and meet customers and others face to face. That's a far cry from boosting your show schedule in order to sell knives at double the prices while your loyal customer base sits on an indefinite waiting list. Maybe Jess has planned for retirement a little better than these other makers. Maybe he's just a more honorable and professional knifemaker.

Pete
 
There's nothing dishonorable per se in raising one's prices, even overnight.
 
I understand that what I am about to post has nothting to do with the original topic. It is in answer to something that was brought up by AV8R.

If a makers knives that were $1200.00 still sell at $3000.00 then he is not overpricing them. He was underpricing them at $1200.00. It's nice that some makers continue to sell knives for well under their aftermarket price, but a maker doesn't owe that to anyone. Why should the maker be expected to forego a better standard of living so that some people can get a good deal on his knives? If you think it is wrong for the maker to raise his prices like that, what do you think of the people that purchase knives from makers like Ken Onion, Kit Carson and Ernie Emerson, then turn around and sell them immediately for three times what they paid for them? Is this wrong? My contention is that neither is wrong. It is understandably upsetting to those that want to purchase a knife made by the makers that raise their prices so high, or that have to pay such high prices from resellers, but there is nothing wrong with it.

No, I am not one of the resellers defending my position.
 
I don't see any problem with a maker letting someone know that they can get a better knife for about the same money.
Greg
 
As a maker improves, gets better equipment ,gains popularity and pays rediculous prices for gas,shipping of supplies,bread & milk,why is he criticized for raising his prices? Would you work for ever at the same wage. Reasonable price increases should be expected if the workmanship warrents it!!!

As for the original scenario,I can't understand the logic. It's not something I would do. Someome early in their career making vast improvements with each piece may have reason but if you can't keep up with current demand,why would you do this?
 
Deweyknives said:
As a maker improves, gets better equipment ,gains popularity and pays rediculous prices for gas,shipping of supplies,bread & milk,why is he criticized for raising his prices? Would you work for ever at the same wage. Reasonable price increases should be expected if the workmanship warrents it!!!
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There are few, if any, customers that get upset because a maker raises prices enough to cover increased costs. I also don't think it bothers people that a maker would want to be compensated for becoming better at what he/she does.

Deweyknives said:
As for the original scenario,I can't understand the logic. It's not something I would do. Someome early in their career making vast improvements with each piece may have reason but if you can't keep up with current demand,why would you do this?
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The fact that the maker deflected the original question and instead went on to try to sell the prospective buyer a knife is what I don't think is kosher. If the maker gave the prospective buyer all the info he requested, and then gave him the option of purchasing a knife directly from him, I see no problem with that. At that point the buyer could decide based on all the info that was provided to him. It is all in how the maker comes across. Does it seem like he is trying to be as helpful as possible, or does it appear that he is being mercenary? From jbravo's original post, it appears that it was the later.
 
The fact that the maker deflected the original question and instead went on to try to sell the prospective buyer a knife is what I don't think is kosher. If the maker gave the prospective buyer all the info he requested, and then gave him the option of purchasing a knife directly from him, I see no problem with that. At that point the buyer could decide based on all the info that was provided to him. It is all in how the maker comes across. Does it seem like he is trying to be as helpful as possible, or does it appear that he is being mercenary? From jbravo's original post, it appears that it was the later.[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you'r saying. I just don't understand why a maker would rather take another order if he's already on a couple year backlog. It's good to be busy but there's a point where you have to determin what you can get done.
 
I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll start a new one and we can talk about the price gouging thing. I have my opinions, but I think it's an interesting topic, especially as we're seeing "bubble prices" with other types of collectables and in the real estate market and would like to hear what others think.

Pete
 
Deweyknives said:
I just don't understand why a maker would rather take another order if he's already on a couple year backlog. It's good to be busy but there's a point where you have to determin what you can get done.
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You aren't going to get any disagreement from me on that point.
 
Joss said:
I'm not sure it's wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's abysmally stupid - unless the maker has a pressing need for cash. Makers who care about their long term legacy should be helpful to collectors attempting to sell their pieces. This is true whether the maker is young or old.

I have been in a situation recently when a maker helped me sell one of his knives. I gave him a % for his help (he didn't accept as much as I wanted to give), and he brokered the sale. Result? An easy few bucks for him, a happy collector, and a happy former customer who is therefore much more likely to ever buy again from him. It's a win-win-win.
Click to expand...

Joss, I agree with you on your first point only I am sure he's wrong.

An informed maker will realize his secondary market is very important to his primary market and he will protect it rather than try to ruin it.

And as far as makers raising their prices, I love it when makers I avidly collect raises their prices as it rasies the value of my collection.
 
Sorry I got off subject with pricing. Price increase is o.k., double and tripple overnight is not.

Views already expressed on original topic.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I understand that what I am about to post has nothting to do with the original topic. It is in answer to something that was brought up by AV8R.

If a makers knives that were $1200.00 still sell at $3000.00 then he is not overpricing them. He was underpricing them at $1200.00. It's nice that some makers continue to sell knives for well under their aftermarket price, but a maker doesn't owe that to anyone. Why should the maker be expected to forego a better standard of living so that some people can get a good deal on his knives? If you think it is wrong for the maker to raise his prices like that, what do you think of the people that purchase knives from makers like Ken Onion, Kit Carson and Ernie Emerson, then turn around and sell them immediately for three times what they paid for them? Is this wrong? My contention is that neither is wrong. It is understandably upsetting to those that want to purchase a knife made by the makers that raise their prices so high, or that have to pay such high prices from resellers, but there is nothing wrong with it.

No, I am not one of the resellers defending my position.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. And Keith said it much better than I could.
 
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