Makers... what would you do ?

J

Jason Cutter

Joined
Oct 9, 2002
Messages
1,419
Here's a scenario ... I have drawn up some designs and am about to start making the knives. But in browsing fellow makers' websites, I realised that the knife patterns look very, very similar (not identical) to another well-respected maker's knives. Not only the blade shapes but also the handle styling and material choice.

I am considering :-
1) contacting the maker and explaining the situation.
2) modifying my designs to make them more different.
3) not bother - there are only so many different ways you can make a piece of pointy steel.

I prefer a combination of 1) and 2). What do you guys advice ? Thanks in advance.
 
I'm really only a beginner, but have been faced with this problem already (well, two times).
I always contacted the makers of the knives which were similar to mine-the response was always the same: they were pleased that I actually discussed the similarities with them and gave me the go ahead. But I still added some changes to my own design to ensure that it didn't come across as a 1:1 copy.

Ok, I have to admit that I pose no commercial threat to other makers, because I only do this as a hobby. But I think if you go by your points 1 and 2, you will do the right thing.
 
There are only so many designs that work for each job so I don't sweat it but neither do I attempt to copy another person's work. I try to make sure that every knife that I make has something of myself in the design.
 
Hi Jason,

Don't worry about it. I was talking with Jay Sadow back when he was in the business. He told me at the New York show that he had gone to the Art Museum in New York.

He said he was looking at a 16th Century painting of a hunting scene. In the painting was a hunting knife. Yep, you guessed it a "Loveless Style" drop point hunter.

I suspect that just about every design has been and re-used out there. Especially the classics.
 
Jason,

If your design was influenced by this maker, simply give credit to him for it. If it is just by chance, and they are not copies of his work, ( as you said they were not exactly the same), then they are still your design. Form follows function, and there are only so many really funtional shapes that look altogether different than most of the others. I have several patterns that I find are similar to other maker's, and find them as often in magazines as well at shows.

Your methods of making your knives give them your finger print.
 
I agree with Bailey.
It is acceptable to be influenced by a design, long as you give credit to the maker you are being influenced by. Most modern knives either being forged or ground are copys of other knives. The idea is to improve on an idea that makes the pattern uniquely yours...if that can happen?

Dale
 
If it's one of mine just send me $25 per copy and we'll call it even......
More power to ya mate!! OY! lazza
 
I would love to hear more opinions. I guess everyone is echoing my own sentiments, but I needed to hear about them anyway. I suppose being a relative newbie, I am still quite self-conscious and perhaps a bit uncertain about the "BIG ISSUES" like eg.- sole authorship, authenticity and originality.

I'm also having a bit of a quiet chuckle with Larry's, "More power to ya mate!! OY! lazza." I think Larry's spent a bit too much time with ozzie's.

For those scratching their heads, Lazza is casual Ozzie-speak for Larry. And I would be called either Kwongy, Kwongster or Jazza... ;) :D . On ya Lazza !!
 
Originally posted by Jason Cutter
I would love to hear more opinions. I guess everyone is echoing my own sentiments, but I needed to hear about them anyway. I suppose being a relative newbie, I am still quite self-conscious and perhaps a bit uncertain about the "BIG ISSUES" like eg.- sole authorship, authenticity and originality.

I'm also having a bit of a quiet chuckle with Larry's, "More power to ya mate!! OY! lazza." I think Larry's spent a bit too much time with ozzie's.

For those scratching their heads, Lazza is casual Ozzie-speak for Larry. And I would be called either Kwongy, Kwongster or Jazza... ;) :D . On ya Lazza !!
Click to expand...

Jazzaaaaaa! How fer from Sydney is Melbourne? I owe Ferret a visit and am planning on dropping out of the sky sometime next year.....right now "I'm flat out like a lizard drinkin'"....G'day!
 
One thing to consider is -- what are you customers going to think about it?

I'd like to see the design if possible. Some design elements will always be repeated, but some makers also have "trademark" design elements. The sad part is that it doesn't matter if it's your design or not, if it repeats a "trademark" design, you're going to get some flak for it. That sounds kinda crappy, but sometimes that will happen. Like I said, it all depends on the design.

That being said, I think if you follow your own advice (and talk to the original maker), I think you'll be fine.

I agree with what Mr. Bradshaw said about a knife being your own. I've found that I can already recognize your knives without knowing that you've made them. You're getting your own "style" and that's a damn good thing to have.
 
Jason, everyone has given very good advice here, but I am going add a warning. A little while ago a maker on this forum made a knife that looked like another makers knife. He took some heat for it. He then made some chop sticks style self defence thingies that looked something like the work of one of the head guys on another forum. This maker has a very loyal following. When it comes to these pointed titanium sticks there is only a certain number of ways that you can make them look, but he was ripped into for doing this. It affected so much that he disappeared for awhile and when he came back he had changed his user name. He still advertises knives as being his own original design as if he thinks people will always consider him to be a copycat, and I can tell that he is still affected by what happened to him.

This maker did not give credit to the original designer for his inspiration, or ask him if he was ok with him making this design. If he had this whole event would probably not have happened.

By the way, the original maker was just as much in on the tar and feathering as any of his followers were.

If it were me I would contact the maker and get his input. It can't hurt, and it can certainly prevent some unhappy moments.
 
Jason, this is obviously a touchy subject.

I think a lot of good advice has been given. I really like Les and Barry's answers.

I was at a show once and this maker "XXX" told me he was the first one to start doing this handle treatment to knives. At the next show I went to, there was a 300 year old knife on display with the EXACT type of handle treatment (but much more precisely done!).

I am all about giving credit where credit is due. I would like to think I carry over some traits of makers I respect. But the only knife I can really think of very intentionally "copying" is a D.E. Henry Bowie. Henry is considered on of the best, especially of his time...and I love his knives. I sat down and sketched a bowie like I was looking at a picture of one of his. There will be differences, the blade grind won't go past the spine, the clip will be ground differently, mine will have green ivory. None-the-less, if I ever finish it, I would say, "Henry style bowie."

On the other hand, some guys get their panties all up in a bunch over nothing. "Why didn't you give credit to XXX and XXX for this part of that knife, and XXX and XXX for that one!?!?!?!?!" They will say (not to me, but I've actually heard those words as shows and on the forums).

I think that is ridiculous. If we had to give a list of credits to people that MAY have influenced the design somehow, for every aspect of the knife, we would ALL have HUGE scripts for credit on every knife on out tables at every show...and we would have to study the archives of knifemakers and its history to do it.

Jason, you already have your own style and are making exceptionally clean knives. That in itself should be enough to help you stand strong without getting knocked around by somebody with nothing better to do than nit-pick (figuratively speaking, I'm not questioning your man-li-ness ;) ).

Nick
 
I agree whole heartedly with what Nick has posted. My point was that you have to be careful. If you make a knife that looks like one beening made by one of the "HOT" makers, then you just might find yourself getting roasted by this makers followers. It has happened before and will happen again.
 
I've had my tactical knives copied by other makers and even factories since I started making them in in 1985. Generally, with custom makers it's no big deal and has never caused me a problem . Several of my design/material innovations have become pretty popular, such as G-10 folder handles, nesting thumb ramp and finger guard and the opening thumb disc. Generally I'm more flattered than offended.
I do caution on one thing, however, which has been mentioned on this thread. If your design is too close to that of another maker's, (particularly if it is a well known design), you may be unfairly accused of copycat work and that is NEVER good for any maker's reputation.
But, that said, grind on and do what you do best. Remember, this business is supposed to be FUN !
 
Wise words from all.

The first knife I made of my own design I thought was a lot like some of Trace Rinaldi's work. I had looked through several tactical knives magazines and such to help me with the design, and a pic of a Trace Rinaldi knife actually did look quite similar to the knife I made. Long story short, I e-mailed Trace and there was no problem. Of course my design did have some differences and such, but to mee it looked Rinaldi-like enough to shoot him an e-mail.

Another time I wanted to do some texturing on some g-10 the same way that Rob Simonich does. So I asked him twice, just to make sure he was fine with what I was doing. No problem!

I think that if I ever designed a knife and then found out that is was similar to something that someone else did, I would shoot them an e-mail and explain the situation. I think that most makers would be fine. I have always found the knife making world to be 99% courteous and friendly, so take a courteous and friendly approach and you'll keep things sweet for all of us.

(but just in case, I'm going to go take patents and copywrites and all kinds of stuff out on the following: bowie, dagger, edge, forging, stock removal, using belt sanders to make knives, using charcoal to heat forges, hammering steel, clip points, tanto points.... HEHE!)
 
If you're making the knives for your own use, then dont worry about it.

If you're making the knives to sell, then you have to consider potential customers will see your knives and think, what a lot of crap copies. Of course as many posters here have already pointed out, almost any knife you do will have some similarities to other knives somebody's already made. There's a distinct line between COPY and Influence.

Reminds me of an old joke: If the baby looks like the husband, that's hereditiy; if the baby looks like the next door neighbor, that's, ah... coincidence...

Of course if the knives look like Loveless knives, that's, ah, normal!
 
Years ago someone, and I think it was Mr. Ken Warner, said that "knife design was a pretty well plowed field". I think this is very true even though there are new things coming up all the time. I have read, reread and then read again every knife book and magazine I could get my hands on since about 1970. Not a day goes by that I do not briefly go through a book that is well worn. I rarely design a knife on paper before I start work. I take a piece of steel and draw some sort of outline with a magic marker then start grinding here and there until it looks right to me and I am happy with it. If you dig deep enough you can see influence from a lot of different knives in my work. This makes me happy because I know my brain is retaining a little of what I see. There is a difference in similarities and downright copying. As has already been said, This is supposed to be fun.
 
Well now. I'm sure most of you have heard it but here it is again. Emulation (copying), is the sincerest form of flattery. However...

Speaking for myself only, I'd like to say this about that. I see lots of knives. Knives in magazines, stores, online websites, in forums etc... We all do. Knives are in my blood. But no matter how good I get at forging to shape, I'll never be able to 'copy' another man's or woman's work. I believe this whole conversation boils down to one word. Intent. What is your intent when making a knife? If it's to try and copy another artist's work and ride on their coattails, shame on you. In my opinion, that's a very rare occurrence in the world of custom or handmade knives. The intent part anyway.

If you're a knifemaker, how many times have you been approached by a potential customer with a picture of a knife they saw and liked? Can you make me one like that one in the pic, they ask? Sure, I can get close but it won't be a copy. Besides, if you're good enough to be able to look at a pic and forge or grind out an exact duplicate I'd like to shake your hand so maybe some of that would rub off on me.

My point here is that there's plenty of room in the world for knifemakers both the new and the old hands at it. We make our knives and sell them and do the best we can. As for myself, I don't use templates or patterns of any kind. Everything I forge is done from scratch using whatever materials I can come up with. I have used pics from time to time to get a 'feel' for what my customer wants. But when the knife is done there's usually very little resemblance between the pic and my finished knife. You can still look at the knife and tell that it's my work. It has my style written all over it and it's a product of my hands, my smithy and shop. Start to finish. And it has my stamp on it. There is no new thing under the sun. Whatever you come up with has most likely been done before. Relax, and make a bunch of knives. Chances are that sometime in your knifemaking lifetime you'll unintentionally step on some other makers toes. Work it out and move on. This too shall pass. Keep your intentions honest and develop your own style. If you try and anticipate duplicating someone elses work by visiting a bunch of knifemakers websites and stumble on a style that looks just like what you're working on just smile and congratulate yourself. Making knives is like that.
 
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