Makers, your thoughts please.

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
29,205
In another thread on etiquette for cancelling an order a situation was brought up about ordering a knife from a maker who gave a delivery date of three months. After ten months and at least one more broken promise on the delivery of the knife the orderer decided that he no longer wanted the knife, and decided to cancell the order. The knife had a $100.00 deposit on it.

This thread lead me to wonder what makers think of people cancelling orders and what would considered by said makers to be acceptable and none acceptable reasons for asking to cancel an order.

I do not know of any makers that ask for a deposit except to cover the costs of special materials or for the order of a one of knife that might be hard to sell to another customer. Under the above scenario, do you think that a refund of the deposit should be given even if special materials or a one of knife were ordered?

I would really like to get your overall thoughts on the cancellation of orders and the return of deposits no matter what the scenario. This discussion could get rather involved, but any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

Happy holidays everyone and my wishes for all to have a great 2002.:)


Edited to fix one of those damn typos again. :rolleyes:
 
The maker did not live up to his end of the bargain, the customer is perfectly within his rights to demand the refund of a deposit. If the deposit was used to buy "special" material, then the said material should be sent to the customer along with a receipt for that material, along with any cash left.JMO.
 
I think Chris' refund is dependent on their communications over the past few months and how far along the knife is. If the maker has genuinely started a knife with some customer specific materials and has explained the delays to the customer's satisfaction along the way, then I think the maker keeps the deposit. If, however, the maker hasn't started, commited expensive materials, or is making a "generic" version of the knife he should probably return the deposit and hope that the customer is happy enough to return at a later date.
 
Main thing...........life is not a rule!!
Communication keeps thing running smoothly. :)
and dont believe a word jeff tells you!!!!!!!! :p:p:p
 
Well, to chime in, the knife was a "standard" folder of the maker's. No special materials (well, I asked for carbon fiber scales, but I don't think those're too hard to come by). All communication was initiated by me, and there wasn't really much of that. I ordered the piece, and we corresponded in the beginning, but as time went on, there were no updates from him, and no inquiries by me (this was the first custom I'd ever ordered, and I didn't want to "bother" the guy - so I figured he'd let me know once things were set.) Anyway, I basically asked him how things were, got a response, and that was as far as it went. So, I suppose we're both to blame on that end of things.

In any event, from what I understand, the knife has been made, just not assembled or "finished". So, while I'd like to have the deposit back, I don't know if I'd feel right asking for it, if he felt he should keep it, since he DID go through the effort of making the piece.
 
Chris, that's horsepucky!

I have no problem with a maker taking longer than originally promised but it's his responsiblity to let you know it's going to be late. At the least, 7 months late, he should have contacted you once or twice just to touch base with you. Unless he specifically told you from the beginning that the deposit was non-refundable, that $100 is your money. If he specially purchased the carbon fiber for your knife, he should subtract the cost(nowhere near $100) and send you the balance and the carbon fiber.
I have alot of respect for knifemakers and realize that not everything always goes according to plan in the handmade knife world, but not communicating is just a bad business practice.

Dave

Happy Holidays All!
 
It is my belief that if a maker gives a delivery date and does not deliver the knife by that date, there is nothing wrong with this as long as he has kept the purchaser updated on what is happening and why there is a delay. I would never consider asking to cancel a knife order, within a reasonable time frame, if I am kept informed as to the progress or lack there of.

If on the other hand I am not kept informed and delivery dates are being promised and not kept with no reasons given, then after awhile I am going to get tired of this kind of run around and cancel the order. At that point I do not think that there should be any hard feelings on the part of the maker since I was willing to go through the transaction, but was not treated with the respect I was due from the other party. Just keep me informed and if the reasons are good for the delay, I will wait a very long time past a promised delivery date for my knife.

As far as deposits go, I will only send deposits to cover additional cost involved in purchasing material not normally used, to make my knife. Also if I was to ask for a knife that was of a design that the maker could have troble selling if I backed out of the deal, then I would also expect to pay a deposit. If it is because of something that happens at my end and the order is cancelled I would expect that my deposit would be kept and would actually feel better if that were the case. If for the reasons given above it is the fault of the maker that the deal has been cancelled I would expect to get my deposit back as well, even if he did have to get special materials or was making me a knife that was to my specifications.

Things do not always go as planned and delays, sometimes long ones, do happen for good reasons. I think there should be understanding on the part of the purchaser when unforseen things happen. I also think that when a maker has done a poor job at his end that he should be willing to live with the results of his poor service.

Well enough, it is early Christmas morning and I am going to bed.

Merry Christmas everyone.
 
I had a guy that lost his job well before his knife was to be complete. He asked for his deposit back, I said No problem. I had others waiting for the same knife, so it was no big deal... Same guy got a better job, and ordered another higher priced knife, with funds up front... Dont burn your bridges by getting pissed about trivial stuff... Now if it was a special order that would be hard to sell that would be a bit different, but I would still not sweat it... If a maker is telling you weeks, and your getting months and months of wait, dont feel bad about asking for the deposit back.. Its only good business on our part to at least let you know whats going on...


Take Care
Trace Rinaldi
www.thrblades.com
 
another way that a maker can cover him/herself is by not making a knife he/she doesn't believe in.Personally I won't make a knife I don't like so if I'm "stuck" with it, I still have a knife I like or at least know I can sell down the road. Trace is very right about not burning your bridges too. Customers can and do come back later and in our buisness happy customers are a necessity.
 
Now I will agree with Bill... Dont make ANYTHING you dont feel good about... If its not a viable design dont make it PERIOD! Its gonna have yer name riding on it for years to come...
I find some customers ask for strange stuff like Blue G-10 and OD green sheaths or whatever, THATS what I mean by a hard to sell item:-) I dont care about that, as long as the KNIFE performs, and is a good design made from the right materials...
Just my couple cents on that, and thanks Bill, you couldnt be more right......

Take Care
Trace Rinaldi
www.thrblades.com
 
Thanks for the replies so far. What I have seen so far is what I had expected to see. I would be very interested in if some of the makers out there had a differing opinion on this topic and why?
 
If an order and deposit are accepted by a maker - and a delivery date is agreed upon - I think the maker has an obligation to deliver the knife as ordered and the buyer has an obligation to come up with the balance of the money. If the maker cannot fill the order as promised, he/she should either agree upon a new delivery date with the buyer or OFFER the buyer the deposit back. This is my opinion.

As a parttime maker, this is one reason I don't accept deposits. It's too much pressure and when I have work in my main profession that means less time for knifemaking. I refuse deposits. I tell customers an ESTIMATED delivery date. I also telll em this may vary. Sometimes I get the knives finished early. Sometimes not. I a buyer tells me upfront they want the knife for a birthday etc. I either tell them I will have the knife finished - and I do - or I tell them I cannot promise but will try...

I sympathise with fulltime makers. Knifemaking is a tough business. Very labor intensive and very low profit margin.

I think it's best if both makers and customers have as much patience as possible: the knives come out better if they get that xtra bit of time they need and nobody gets frustrated ;-)
 
Good Thoughts: I have been truly blessed in the world of knives. My waiting list is beyond my ability. When I was a little kid, my grandmother taught me that when I had a job to do I should get it done. When I look at the list, I can get depressed as I doubt that I will ever have time to get them all made. Therefor I work on knives one at a time and try not to think about the rest.

I have never been good at saying no, therefor when someone orders a knife their name will go on the list. I promice that I will make the knife as soon as I can and that it will be years before their knife is done. We do not send many letters out advising the status of the order, only when someone writes or calls wanting to know. Angie looks at the list, determines who is on top for a knife then suggests I make ----. When the knife is finished she sends a note that their knife is ready and states the current price. If we don't hear back in a couple of weeks, sends a letter to the next man down the list.

When you get on a long list I would adbvise writing the maker every now and then just to keep in toutch. Don't apply too much pressure as the maker probably feels the pressure enough. This can expedite the order.

Managing a waiting list is very difficult when the maker spends 12 hours in the shop, 7 days a week. Were I a client I would rather the maker make knives than write letters about the list. I really don't know of a good managment system, but this post has proveded some insight.
Thanks and Take Care
 
Now, that IS a list that I would LOVE my name to appear on. I also would NOT bother ED much, other than to say Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to. YUP, and to tell him HOW excited I am about the knife he is making for me ONE DAY.
If it is WORTH the wait, I WAIT...........wolf;)
 
Therefore I work on knives one at a time and try not to think about the rest.(ED)


Very good.....I wish I couldnt think about the rest!!!! :p:p:p

I think it all comes out in the wash....I dont know too many knifemakers who are "ON TIME"..............ever!!:(
 
My watch always says Im late!!!!!!!!!!!! :p

Actually............It doesnt say anything....you gotta read it!! :p:p:p





:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the comedy relief Tom and thank you Ed for your insight. I do find that pestering the maker is probably a good idea. It is hard however when you are anticipating the arrival of a new pride and joy.
 
Seems like no matter how hard I try I can never hit a date on time,Something always needs to be cleaned up a little better the next day when I look the knife over again,or something happens in th eshop.A multitude of things can and will go wrong when you are working on a deadline,and usually some part of a knife will get rushed and not be up to my standards and then I have to clean it up and am still late.
I will always email the customer when I start on the knife and give them a time I hope to have the knife done,Sometimes (all the time) I am not a good judge of how long some parts will take me.I don't know about some of the other makers but when I get into a knife I am usually in a timewarp like zone,I couldn't tell you what time or day it is or anything else that is going on around me like the sun coming up or going down.
I try and keep my customers happy and keep comunications up to date as much as possiable.I really hate being late and i feel guilty about it all the time,but I am just a poor judge of the time involved in some knives.
I agree that a happy customer even if they have to cancil a order is the best thing to have,I have had several cancilations in the last year,some have re-ordered and others have promised to re-order as soon as things turn back arund.
I don't take deposits at all,for the reason that if they were to cancil I feel there money is there money and not mine untill they get the order thus I would have already used the money and probably wouldn't have it at the time to retuen it so I would just rather not be in that situation,also if I have the money up fron't I feel it should get done first and formost and if sercumstances happen and I am late with the knife I feel really guilty about missing the date.
I feel if the customer wants the knife done to the best of my sbilities they will wait a little while longer as I put the finishing touches to there knife,but i also feel like I shouldn't make them wait any longer than they should have to because of me.If I am runnings late I will always try and add a little extra to the knife to make up for the inconvenience I have caused the customer.
Just my ramblings here.
Bruce
 
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