Recommendation? Making a knife for a professional kitchen

[Diego_B]

So recently I found out that my 2nd grade teacher's daughter is going to work in a professional kitchen. Her parents told me that they would love to have a knife made by me to have as a gift for her and they want it made by me because I was a student of her in elementary school and they just like the fact that it was made by me. Anyhow with this being said I told them that I would love to make something for her but I would have to find out if it would even be allowed to be used in the kitchen because I know that there are standards that the FDA or whoever has for personal knives. I would just ask their daughter myself what is legal in the kitchen and what is not, but they would like it to be more of a surprise to her I guess however at the same time I think they are more concerned on me making something she wants than it being a surprise so I may end up asking her sometime shortly.

So my question here today is "can a chef just bring in and start using a custom stainless/carbon steel knife?"
I feel stupid for asking this because I hear that many chefs actually prefer carbon steel blades. Maybe some of you guys here have made a knife to be used in a professional environment? I just feel like there is something that I may be missing because I know that the FDA can give a place hell if something is not following protocol and it can be a hazard to the person consuming the food that was prepared with the knife.

I was also wondering if some kitchens have a thing against carbon steel knives since they do patina and I hear that tastes from foods prepared before with the same knife can get handed off onto another meal that is prepared with that same knife. If that's the case stainless is the only way to go?

My plan right now is to make it from stainless or carbon steel? Have G10 or micarta scales, full tang blade, stainless or brass corby bolts, .090 or .100 stock thickness, and a full flat grind with a 600 grit handsanded finish?

I'm not sure how right or wrong I am on any of this but I did find this that talks a little bit about what I am trying to do specifically in the "FDA Food Code Characteristics" topic
https://www.jayfisher.com/Food_Safety_Kitchen_Chefs_Knives.htm#Patina_(Oxidation)

 

[marchone]

Stainless steel meets most code requirements for commercial food preparation. Having said that, I have never in 30 years of working in commercial kitchens had a health inspector levy a violation for using a carbon steel blade. That was in the most stringent municipalities in the US, including NYC, Suffolk County NY and Santa Monica CA. I’m retired now, so that may have changed but I haven’t heard of it.

Niolox, AEB-L and X50CrMoV15 (Krupps 4116) are commonly used in professional kitchens to meet FDA, local and EU standards. The latter is used in both forged and stamped Wusthof, Henckels and Victorinox kitchen knives.

I hope that helps.

 

[weo]

"can a chef just bring in and start using a custom stainless/carbon steel knife?"

Yes, but possibly not right off the bat at a new job.

Maybe some of you guys here have made a knife to be used in a professional environment?

I have, for a chef to use at his restaurant in Chicago and he wanted a 1080/15N20 damascus blade with a stabilized maple handle. I expressed concerns about the Heath Dept regulations and such, suggesting a synthetic handle material and he told me not to worry about that.

 

[PMQ]

Have a look at AEB-L, it's a stainless but has many characteristic of carbon steel, namely ease of grinding, ease of sharpening, high toughness, even tougher than most carbon steel, the heat treat process allows for lower austenizing: most stainless steel austenize at 1950-2000F, while AEB-L can be austenized at as low as 1850F.

 

[HSC ///]

Don’t overthink this. I have a few hundred knives in the hands of pros and they overwhelmingly choose carbon steel.

I suggest you consider a flat to convex grind. Full Flat will give her a headache with the food sticking.

if the budget allows I suggest z wear steel or MagnaCut. A2 is a good choice as well.
The best choice IMO is a laminated steel knife with carbon core and stainless cladding
Edge profile is one of the most important things my customers look for

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I make knives for chefs. Stainless is popular, but the best knives are carbon steel. They have the easiest edge to maintain, which is important to a chef.
Handles are almost always Micarta or G-10.

As far as I know there are no enforced rules on knives as long as they are clean and do not have pockets or materials that can trap and harbor bacteria. Carbon steel is fine. I have never heard of a food inspector rejecting a knife because of the blade steel. Rusty, dirty, deteriorated handles - YES, steel type - NO

The "rules" to keep in mind are the ones the chefs want.
1)THIN. I have never had a chef want a blade over .125" most are .060" thick at the spine. .125" would be for a BIG heavy chopper or break-down knife.
)2 Ergonomic. Simple is the rile here. Forget fancy handle shapes or blade shapes. The pinch grip is the most commonly used one, so make sure it works well in that grip.
3) Balanced. Try to have the weight evenly distributed so the knife feels light in the hand. This is why most culinary blades have longer handles.
4) Practical. As much as we all love fancy stabilized woods and damascus, they have no practical advantage in the kitchen, and some major disadvantages. Chefs want a good mono-steel and a sturdy handle that will survive lots of handling and washing is what works best.
5) Steel choice - ask five knifemakers to recommend their favorite steel and you will get thirty answers. The ones that chefs want will have a high hardness and fairly durable edge. W2, 26C3, Hitachi white/blue, 52100, and 1095 all work great as carbon steels. AEB-L , S35VN, NITRO-V, (and a host of others) are good stainless steels. I have had great success with S35VN
6) Size. Huge chefs knives decorate the chef's knife roll, but rarely are on the work table. A thin sharp knife with a 4" to 6 " blade will work all day long. A 7-8" chefs blade will see a lot more work than a 10-12" chefs blade. Obviously, this will depend on the type kitchen she is in and the tasks they give her. A new chef may do little more than chop cabbage for coleslaw in the beginning.

 

[marchone]

6) Size. Huge chefs knives decorate the chef's knife roll, but rarely are on the work table.

The old guys, like me, use heavy 10” Chef’s knives because they know how to use them. It seems to be a lost skill.

 

[Diego_B]

Have a look at AEB-L, it's a stainless but has many characteristic of carbon steel, namely ease of grinding, ease of sharpening, high toughness, even tougher than most carbon steel, the heat treat process allows for lower austenizing: most stainless steel austenize at 1950-2000F, while AEB-L can be austenized at as low as 1850F.

I like the things that I hear about AEB-L and that is one steel that I am considering for it.

Don’t overthink this. I have a few hundred knives in the hands of pros and they overwhelmingly choose carbon steel.

I suggest you consider a flat to convex grind. Full Flat will give her a headache with the food sticking.

if the budget allows I suggest z wear steel or MagnaCut. A2 is a good choice as well.
The best choice IMO is a laminated steel knife with carbon core and stainless cladding
Edge profile is one of the most important things my customers look for

Good point. I will stick to the flat to convex grind.

I make knives for chefs. Stainless is popular, but the best knives are carbon steel. They have the easiest edge to maintain, which is important to a chef.
Handles are almost always Micarta or G-10.

As far as I know there are no enforced rules on knives as long as they are clean and do not have pockets or materials that can trap and harbor bacteria. Carbon steel is fine. I have never heard of a food inspector rejecting a knife because of the blade steel. Rusty, dirty, deteriorated handles - YES, steel type - NO

The "rules" to keep in mind are the ones the chefs want.
1)THIN. I have never had a chef want a blade over .125" most are .060" thick at the spine. .125" would be for a BIG heavy chopper or break-down knife.
)2 Ergonomic. Simple is the rile here. Forget fancy handle shapes or blade shapes. The pinch grip is the most commonly used one, so make sure it works well in that grip.
3) Balanced. Try to have the weight evenly distributed so the knife feels light in the hand. This is why most culinary blades have longer handles.
4) Practical. As much as we all love fancy stabilized woods and damascus, they have no practical advantage in the kitchen, and some major disadvantages. Chefs want a good mono-steel and a sturdy handle that will survive lots of handling and washing is what works best.
5) Steel choice - ask five knifemakers to recommend their favorite steel and you will get thirty answers. The ones that chefs want will have a high hardness and fairly durable edge. W2, 26C3, Hitachi white/blue, 52100, and 1095 all work great as carbon steels. AEB-L , S35VN, NITRO-V, (and a host of others) are good stainless steels. I have had great success with S35VN
6) Size. Huge chefs knives decorate the chef's knife roll, but rarely are on the work table. A thin sharp knife with a 4" to 6 " blade will work all day long. A 7-8" chefs blade will see a lot more work than a 10-12" chefs blade. Obviously, this will depend on the type kitchen she is in and the tasks they give her. A new chef may do little more than chop cabbage for coleslaw in the beginning.

.060 thick sounds almost paper thin . I do realize that in a "preforming" knife thinner seems to be better? I am making a couple currently out of .90 and that is perfect to me and I guess the average home cook but never again will I make one from .125 stock, learned my lesson there. I'm planning on making a 8" blade but I will have to confirm with them if that's what they specifically want.

So as far as steel choices. For carbon steel my first thought was 26C3 and then either A2 or W2. For stainless I thought of AEB-L or S30V. I am leaning towards doing it in 26C3 because I hear that it is supposed to be a cleaner version of the Hitachi White which is supposed to be excellent for holding thin edges?

 

[12345678910]

There's more value in good thin paring knives and a moderately sized say Santoku type than a huge French chef's knife.


If she's just starting, her life will be a misery of endless prep.

Consider say a trio of parers, a peeler that actually works, plus maybe some sort of sharpener


Take into account her hand size, is she tiny ?

A laminated layer of micartia or G10 with an interesting colour pattern may be interesting to ID her stuff from others and colour code.

Maybe the kitchen follows a handle colour pattern for HACCP - like the Kosher system of different knives for different materials to avoid cross contamination.

 

[Diego_B]

There's more value in good thin paring knives and a moderately sized say Santoku type than a huge French chef's knife.


If she's just starting, her life will be a misery of endless prep.

Consider say a trio of parers, a peeler that actually works, plus maybe some sort of sharpener


Take into account her hand size, is she tiny ?

A laminated layer of micartia or G10 with an interesting colour pattern may be interesting to ID her stuff from others and colour code.

Maybe the kitchen follows a handle colour pattern for HACCP - like the Kosher system of different knives for different materials to avoid cross contamination.

I never thought of that. That will be something else I will have to ask about. I do know that for sure each of the chefs including her have their own stations in the kitchen, not sure if that makes any difference.

 

[Lorien]

I've only made two kitchen knives so far, (another 2 in the works) and I used A2- primarily because it's easy to get, comes precision ground and is air hardening. So far, edge holdingj/stability has been surprisingly good. Don't count on any of that chromium to provide stain resistance though

 

[Diego_B]

Also something that I didn't mention here specifically that I wanted to ask was the handle material selection and if any type of micarta is preferred over the other for this purpose? Or is G10 more desirable? I personally thought that linen or canvas micarta would be a better choice over G10. I have never been impressed with G10 other that the fact that it has a pattern to it, but grip wise I think its slick and canvas micarta is more grippy unless you have the texturing on G10 like on some folders.

 

[Richard338]

I made some with A2 and have been very happy with the performance although they stain easily. I found paper micarta easier to finish to look more like a commercially available handle. It is quite grippy. I suggest you test finish a block of your chosen material. I have trouble making canvas micarta look good unless you put a polish or oil on it, and that needs touching up periodically.

 

[Hubert S.]

I made some with A2 and have been very happy with the performance although they stain easily. I found paper micarta easier to finish to look more like a commercially available handle. It is quite grippy. I suggest you test finish a block of your chosen material. I have trouble making canvas micarta look good unless you put a polish or oil on it, and that needs touching up periodically.

+1 for paper micarta. This is a poultry knife I made a while back using crosscut mocha paper micarta from Pop's. The handle has pretty good grip even wet and I think it looks pretty good.

 

[Diego_B]

I made some with A2 and have been very happy with the performance although they stain easily. I found paper micarta easier to finish to look more like a commercially available handle. It is quite grippy. I suggest you test finish a block of your chosen material. I have trouble making canvas micarta look good unless you put a polish or oil on it, and that needs touching up periodically.

+1 for paper micarta. This is a poultry knife I made a while back using crosscut mocha paper micarta from Pop's. The handle has pretty good grip even wet and I think it looks pretty good.

I never thought that paper micarta would do the trick.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I tell everyone who wants to make hunters and chefs knives to grab a micrometer and go to a good cutlery store. Measure the spine thickness. They are usually shocked to see how thin knives really are. I rarely buy any steel over .100", and most is .070"/.060".

 

[Cushing H.]

X2 on just asking her what she wants in terms of type of knife. What knife a person reaches for is a really personal choice. I have a friend who swears by a santoku. I love a nakiri. Just made a knife for my sister, and insisted she wanted a western style chefs knife. Ask the recipient…