How To Making integrals without thick stock.

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Ian Fifelski

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Oct 4, 2017
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I have really been wanting to work on some integral bowies and kitchen knives. I have some .375 1075 that I am planning to use.

I am wondering if, to get the thickness I need, is forge-welding the only way? How thick Is a good standard for an integral bolster/guard for a bowie or kitchen knife?

Also, for the future, where is a good supply for round or square stock HC steel?

thanks,
Ian
 
If you weld/pin on the bolsters/butt …. it isn't an integral. The word roughly translates as "from a whole piece".

That said, there is nothing wrong with pinning, spot welding, full welding, etc. on the parts to make the bolsters/butt . It is how the vast majority are done.
 
I was thinking of stacking maybe 3 bars of the the same size and welding them together, would that be considered an integral?

I was told you could widen steel if you clamp in a vise and hit from the end but I have heard it won't make things much wider. Will it get my .375 inch thick stock wide enough?
 
Forge welding three bars, or making damascus will end with a single bar, so it would be an integral after you cut/milled away the excess.

Upsetting a bar will thicken the butt, but it won't thicken the bolster area. It takes some good forging skills to upset a bar any significant amount.
 
The least forging method I could see is taking a couple oversized bolster pieces, autogenously welding the full perimeter of each bollster to the parent stock and then forge welding them together. This has a couple of advantages over other methods. One, it is dead easy to set those welds; two, you minimize forging; three, with the autogenous weld, you don't have to worry about any wonkiness in the heat treat or etching later on.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Forge welding three bars, or making damascus will end with a single bar, so it would be an integral after you cut/milled away the excess.

Upsetting a bar will thicken the butt, but it won't thicken the bolster area. It takes some good forging skills to upset a bar any significant amount.
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What if you were only to heat the bolster area and use water on either side? The hot part would be in the middle. Wouldn’t hammering on the piece vertically make that part thicker? If you were able to keep it straight that is.

I would think the best way to do it, without having thick stock would be to forge weld a couple pieces on either side.
 
JG Custom Metal Works said:
What if you were only to heat the bolster area and use water on either side? The hot part would be in the middle. Wouldn’t hammering on the piece vertically make that part thicker? If you were able to keep it straight that is.

I would think the best way to do it, without having thick stock would be to forge weld a couple pieces on either side.
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In theory what you describe would definitely work but in practice I have found it to be a complete pain in the butt! This is called 'upsetting' in the blacksmithing world and I'm pretty sure it is universally hated - especially on thin flat stock. I do personally think an oxy-acetylene torch with a pencil flame would be much quicker and easier to pull off than the water thing though. (think of all the heat you lose cooling off the two sides!)

I have tried it a number of times and the main difficulty comes from the thin material that is required for a knife. I've personally said 'screw it' on every knife blank I tried to upset an integral guard into haha! It's much easier to upset a 1/2"+ thick piece of steel than a 1/8" of steel. Folding happens way too easy or you find yourself striking so lightly that nothing really happens. That being said though 'upsetting' metal is an art in itself and a time consuming one at that. I'm sure master blacksmiths would have no problem with it, however.

I definitely would much rather start with a 3/4" round bar to forge out with an integral guard in mind than 1/4" or less flat stock.
 
allenkey said:
In theory what you describe would definitely work but in practice I have found it to be a complete pain in the butt! This is called 'upsetting' in the blacksmithing world and I'm pretty sure it is universally hated - especially on thin flat stock. I do personally think an oxy-acetylene torch with a pencil flame would be much quicker and easier to pull off than the water thing though. (think of all the heat you lose cooling off the two sides!)

I have tried it a number of times and the main difficulty comes from the thin material that is required for a knife. I've personally said 'screw it' on every knife blank I tried to upset an integral guard into haha! It's much easier to upset a 1/2"+ thick piece of steel than a 1/8" of steel. Folding happens way too easy or you find yourself striking so lightly that nothing really happens. That being said though 'upsetting' metal is an art in itself and a time consuming one at that. I'm sure master blacksmiths would have no problem with it, however.

I definitely would much rather start with a 3/4" round bar to forge out with an integral guard in mind than 1/4" or less flat stock.
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Nobody is 'good enough' to upset a thin section of metal in a thick bar quickly. And quenching the unaffected areas is probably unwise as it will very likely result in fracturing.

If you HAD to accomplish this via upset, the best way would be the use of an induction forge (or coal forge, oxy-fuel may work, but unless you have a helper is going to be a pain) for localized heating with a dedicated fixture that supported all areas of the bar (laterally) that were not being upset. Even then, it is going to be way easier to accoplish in round or square bar. If you really want to do this, forge welding extra material is the way to go. And to make an appropriate fixture you will need to be able to weld.

So, If you find yourself in a place where you can weld and you can forge, there are a bunch or easier ways to accomplish this. I generally think that if you have a press or power hammer, just use parent stock large enough for your integral. If you dont, I think the forge welding method is easier (it is way easier than making damascus, take the parent stock and your peices, run an autogenous lap weld around the perimeter of both, heat it to forge welding temp and tap it a couple of times). It is really dead simple, you will never get a delam, no flux, etc. And because you are welding a couple of square inches at most, you can easily get the weld done in one heat. And go directly to forging from there.
 
I believe it could be done quite effectively with a sturdy post vise and a torch to heat up a specific area but I doubt I could get things thick enough with my 3/8" stock.

I think the best way for me will just be forge welding though.
 
Anyway NJSB and Admiral have some steels in thick sections. I am sure tons of other dudes do too. Upsetting an isolation with a post vise is a bit of a pain. You get sharp , cut in corners, it mushrooms out between the jaws. It is doable but would never be my preferance.
 
What is the normal thickness of an integral guard on a bowie? and a bolster on a chef knife? I am looking to purchase a file guide and would like it to fit integrals. The one I am looking at opens to a bit over 3/4 inch. Would this be large enough?
 
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Ian Fifelski said:
What is the normal thickness of an integral guard on a bowie? and a bolster on a chef knife? I am looking to purchase a file guide and would like it to fit integrals. The one I am looking at opens to a bit over 3/4 inch. Would this be large enough?
Click to expand...
A file guide makes a difference for just about everything. It's a tool that should be bought before the grinder.
 
Ian Fifelski said:
What is the normal thickness of an integral guard on a bowie? and a bolster on a chef knife? I am looking to purchase a file guide and would like it to fit integrals. The one I am looking at opens to a bit over 3/4 inch. Would this be large enough?
Click to expand...

That would cover just about every guard I've made.
 
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