Making Money?

L6steel

L6steel

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
5,855
How do you go about making money in this business? I don't expect to get rich but I just took a look at my finances and it just aint happening. Is it better to make a basic lower priced model instead of trying for fancies before your name is known? I got 5 grand in credit card debt I gotta knock out asap and the way it's going, knifemaking isn't gonna do it. Theres gotta be some tips you old timers can give us. Thanks!! Michael
 
Michael, I know what you mean. I had to go back to work for a regular pay check. I still make knives part time though. I was staying even with the bills but never seemed to get the upper hand. I gave it a go for over 2 years and never enjoyed a job more but to pay all the taxes required and trying to put some away for retirement and pay my social security was the hardest part. I make a wide variety of knives and prices, it seems the less expensive ones sell best but dont pay as well because they also take too much time to make. There are more buyers for well made folders in the $200 range. They will more than likely have to be cut out by someone else to make alot of the same model. I get bored making the same knife day after day. Im finishing up on my orders and not taking any more so I can make some of the knives I have been wanting to for some time now. I cant wait to get started on them. I think they may draw some looks.
 
Money? I make knives in my shop, not money! Now if I had a really good press, amybe I could make quarters or the new Dollar coins or something..............
 
I heard somewhere that the best way to make a million as a KNIFEMAKER is to start out with 2 million????
Take Care
TJ Smith
 
Bruce,

Do you think it is because your not a mastersmith, and do you think it will change when you become one?
I don't have 5 years or more to practice and sell one every now and then, in hopes that becoming a mastersmith is the answer, has the knife world become so dependant on titles that without the mastersmith stamp the public thinks a person isn't capable of producing a quality product?
I'm not trying to be nasty and I don't want anyone to take it that way. I've found that knifemakers ( no matter what techique they use) to be some of the most friendly and generous people I have ever met.
And I think that the makers with the master bladesmith title have definitely paid their dues with their time, knowledge and talents in several aspects of the knifemaking field and deserve to be ranked in the highest regard. Shoot Ed Fowler's book and techiques in the knifemaking field is my inspiration for testing and trying to produce one of the best blades out there. I know I'll never be able to produce a blade as good as Mr. Fowlers but that doesn't keep me from trying. In my opinion he's one of the best and I don't know if anyone
can match his quality.
But I have made knives for 7 years, almost 2 years as a full time maker,studying,making and testing almost every day of the last 2 years, I love what I do, and my blades and many other unknowns are better than any production blade out there, but what does a person have to do to get people to try them?
I'll get down off my soap box now, I just wish someone could suggest what a coming up knifemaker has to do to sell a few and get his or her product out. I guess if its to become a mastersmith than I'll never make it, I just can't hold on for that long on beans.
I probably could, but my wife sure as hell won't.

Thanks
Bill
 
I agree with all of you.
There has to be a better way to make a buck doing this.
I have a painting business I do part time to make the bills.
Knives are the fun part!
But how do I justify making a quality knife that may take anywhere from 16hrs up to make one and sell it for under $300, most of the time for less.

When I can knock out an Exterior paint job in 24-28 hrs and CLEAR anywhere from $1100-$1400:barf:

Don't feel bad: Because I spend so much time in the shop I too have racked up some major Knife related debt...
 
Bill, I hope it makes a differance when I become a Master Smith. I have full intentions of becoming one, as I only have less than 2 years to go. I started selling my knives in 1989 and feel Ive paid more than my dues and am still pretty much unknown. It does seem that the Masters get the sales but Ive seen some of them not sell out at shows either. I really think we all need our own niche or style that sets us apart from the others. I know Ed Fowler and have followed his writings and can see his knives from across the room. He is also quite an indiviual that people enjoy talking to. We need to specialize on a certain kind of knife and make that knife very well, soon we will be known for that style. Bruce Evans is well on his way for his Bowies and Sheaths. My style bounces around like crazy. I can make most any knife but cant seem to settle on one particular one. Im going to make a pistol/knife next. It may be my claim to fame (I hope)
 
Knife making will eat away at your soul. You become consumed by the romance and blinded by the steel. I believe that you can make a better and more rewarding knife with the right tools. It is hard to buy tools and support your self on what you will get for a knife. Go out and get a real job where some one else pays your taxes and does the book work for you. You will be able to to buy the good tools and machines, even if you only last a year at the real job you will still be ahead of the game. Do not be a sell out by farming out the work to cheap labor and than putting your name on it. This will only make rich and miserable.
 
It is never easy working for yourself, been doing it for years myself. You are always at the mercy of the customer so the only way around that is to increase your customer base. You can do this by broadening your product line or pick up another product line (like painting houses) to fill the gaps. Eventually if you are very good at promoting yourself you will not need the extra product lines.

The key words are "promoting yourself". The successful people in any field are shameless self promoters, nobody will do that for you. Get out there and promote, eventually you will become an overnight success.
 
The problem seems to be the same, wherever you live. Take a look into the knifemaker's info in Knives 2001 and count the WELL KNOWN makers that are marked as part timers or even spare timers. You will be surprised.

All of the "professional" knifemakers i know over here have another job to pay their bills or are old enough to be retired and get money from the funds.

Being in the ABS or even being an ABS master smith doesn't help at all if you live in Europe like me. I've been in the ABS for five years now and nobody cares, because people look at the quality/price relation instead at the titles. Seems that not even the ABS cares because i can't find myself in the KNIVES 1997 to 2001 listing of ABS members. They DID like to take my membership money, though. That's the reason why i won't stay in there for any longer. I can use the money better for other stuff.

Buying expensive equipment may be another wrong way to go. Ask Tai Goo. He sold all his machines and stuff because they would eat away a lot of the money he made with his knives. Today all of his work is HAND made. And i don't know anybody who makes better and more beautiful knives. Grinding belts, drill bits, electricity and all this stuff cost money. Elbow grease doesn't. Ask yourself why the only one's that seem to make a good living from knifemaking are the big supply houses.

Achim
 
I also have been trying to figure this one out myself.I am looking at having to go back to work at another job to get out of dbt.Everything was going great untill the econoy crashed at the begining of summer,then I had orders cancal and then didn't get any for a few months.This is the first time in almost 2 years that I have had anything for sale that has lasted longer than a couple of weeks.And I have been trying to keep my prices down since I am also a lesser known maker.
The bill collecters don't care about hereing that your buisness has fell back and that you have orders or that you also are trying to collect on a finished order so you can pay them.And it seems that the only way out is That nasty B word but then you lose all the equipment that you tried so hard to get that you had to put up for colateral to stay afloat for a while longer,so I am in a real pickel myself.
I believe that shamelessly promoting yourself is a good idea if it means doing a lot of shows and advertising in the magazines but you have to have allot of disposable income for that also.Have you guys checked out the price on just one small ad in one of the major magazines lately?
I heard it said once that we live off others disposable income,and in the situation our country is in at the present I think people are afraid to let go of that income.I also heard "Don't quit your day job"
I was working for my Mom and things werent working,you know you can't tell your mom off like you could some other boss.And one day I just quit and my wife was cool enough to say that my job was in my own shop in the back of the house.Now she is hinting at me going back to work for Mom.As jobs around here ar hard to come by and nothing pays very well.
I was talking to Alex Daniels about the orders falling off and he said that over the years he has gone through the same things and that I just had to grit my teeth and hold on.He also said that dropping prices or trying to make a lesser knife ( fit and finish wise 0 wasn't the way to go either,as this would hurt your reputation more than anything and would bring the price of the knives your collecters have now down so I wouldn't suggest that to anyone either.If it helps Alex said that he hasn't had a new customer order a knifew from him in over a year,though this doesn't hurt him as he has a customer base now that has him booked up for years,and the new people are buying from purveyors that buy from him.But as for the new orders it isn't just use lesser known makers that are feeling the crunch.
Heck ask any of the purveyors how there business is and you will see that they are slow also.And they are not buying as much as they used to either.
I hope that things pick up for all of us soon,and we can all go back to doing what we love without someone else telling use what to do everyday.
I wonder if the credit companies would like to trade for some knives??:D Then they could sell them as they call people 2-4 times a day everyday wanting money....
I guess I better get to work and try and make some money.
Bruce
 
Bruce,
I too make several different styles of knives, shoot I don't want to have to settle for just one particular style, thats like going to a job every day that you do the same thing day in and day out.(Boring) Steel performance is my biggest concern, you can always make a shape or style to meet a persons need, but if the steel isn't any good all you've produced is a conversation piece.
I've been in construction so long that I got burned out, saw dust in your eyes, ears, and month every day gets old. But I can go to work tomorrow for one of several contractors that I've worked for in the past because of the quality of work I did for them.But if I do that, there go's my hopes for knifemaking. You just don't swing a hammer 8-10 hrs a day and then feel like doing much when you get home. I know what your saying and I know that I haven't been in this game near as long as so many others, but under my cirumstances I couldn't have started knifemaking any earlier, but theres got to be a way for one to get his or her product out into the publics hands without giving them away.
Mr. Tichbourne says self promoting is the key, but I've talked to people after people at shows,local sporting good stores,put up fliers and ran adds in two of the local papers to let people know that I make handmade knives, but it just doesn't seem to matter. These people around here would rather go buy a cheap wal-mart knife every year than to pay a little more for a knife that will last as long as they will with a little care.
I just don't know how to advertise anymore without taking out a T.V ad. What really is the aggrevation, is that if you could just get people to try your products, the products will do all the talking. Maybe giving them away is the answer.
I was always told growing up, get a job that you love doing and you'll never work a day of your life, they forgot to tell me you won't eat either.:D

Thanks
Bill
 
I plan to be a full-time knifemaker, no doubt! Maybe not next week or next year, but I will be. I am working at it slow and steady. I try to spend money only where it will work for me. I do a lot of thinking, maybe too much, and it doesn't cost me anything. I'm choosing to believe that where there is a will there is a way. How about: Good things come to those who wait. :)
 
:) I am very new to knife making, still welding my fingers together on hot metal, but as the man said " You make money the old fashion way, you earn it". You have to ask yourself, what is that you do? Ford makes cars; Johnson and Johnson makes aspirin and band-aids and Coke makes soft drinks. But what does Ford market, transportation, JNJ pain relieve and Coke quenches your thirst. What makes Ford different from Chevy, JNJ from Bayer and Coke from Pepsi? What do you market and what makes you different from all the other knife makers? I am a stockbroker but I solve financial problems. It may sound crass but I need to talk with people who have money and are willing to invest. If you marketing $500 and up knives to people looking for $50-$100 knives, you get a lot of lookers but few buyers. Market your product to those who can and are willing to pay fot it. If I had the talent some of you display, I would market my upscale CUSTOM knives in finer jewelry stores, my survival knives to fire and police depts. Seperate yourself from the ordinary. Quality and marketing are the key. Just a few thoughts from a very new guy.
 
The guys who really make money at this have differentiated themselves somehow. And like George says, are shameless self promoters. You've all seen it, now ask yourself can I do it? And if so, do I have the product that will stand up?

It's hard starting out. I've been at it 4-5 years and still have huge amounts to learn. Sometimes I'm full time, sometimes I have to get a day job to pay the bills. That is "paying your dues". My day jobs have been manufacturing management jobs which pay reasonably well, but eat the soul. When I can work on knives, I'm a happy guy.

My advice is, make the knives you want to make. Make them the best you can, and keep learning and improving. If you have to get a day job, or paint houses, cool. There are enough people cranking out interchangable flavour of the day knives now, and they are devaluing the craft. We don't need more. Learn the craft, and price your knives appropriately. I think that's the path to happiness (IMHO, of course). I got a lot happier when I increased the price of my simpler knives in relation to the fighters and bowies. I learn more from bowies.

Let the guys who want to make 300 knives a year, and trumpet pointless "new" technologies do it. Be an artist, suffer, pay dues, build a following. Look at it as a long term project. I'm hoping to go full-full time in 15 years or so. I know when I do, I sure as heck won't be making 3 models of folders and sucking up to windbag dealers.

Look to older makers, the guys with 20-30 years years in for your business model. They've lasted. Remember, these knives are a luxury item, they always will be. Trying to compete with production knives is a losing proposition.

Sorry for rambling:)
 
Okay, I admit it, I'm not anywhere in the class of knifemaker as many of you are. I've been making sharpened steel for quite a few years but never sold them let alone showed them. I made custom furniture instead. yep, I sold 'em to everybody. Took orders from the people with real money--biggest pain in the ass going! I sat down one day and figured out why those big spenders sought me out. I was making real value product and selling at a reasonable (to me) price. Translation? I could make as good a piece of furniture as those that did it full time, I just didn't charge as much. Finally, I stopped making custom furniture on order--I made what I wanted to and got an outside job. I found that I sold more, but I really wasn't happy, as I really wanted to make knives. Now I am gearing over to knifemaking. Nope, I'll never be able to make a living at it. Why? I am too independent! I really make my knives to suit myself. I've never been one for structured education and tend to drift off on my own. So the ABS program is not going to attract me. For me crafting a blade via hand with few electrical tools gives me the satisfaction I need. I don't think anyone has the answers L6 posed to open this, but winning the lottery might help!;) ;) ;)
 
I am not a maker, but can appreciate how unappreciated craftsmen become when they are compared to the "economies of scale" offered by a commodity market. There were better cars than the Model-T, but they live only in history books now, whereas the T was the launchpad for much of what is "automobile" today because it was made in the thousands of units and very aggressively marketed.

You guys are right about the inherent inability of a lone-wolf maker to keep up cashflow-wise with the commercial makers like Benchmade, CRKT, Spyderco, and the others. You must wear all the design/making/treating/bookkeeping/custodial hats in your shops. They have entire departments (or outsourced personnel) to take of each of those functions. Their deeper pockets allow them to absorb downturns in the business cycle and still be in business when the market bounces back up. And they do it by selling to people who mostly don't care how much quality they are buying, only how much they are paying for the product.

Unfortunately, people who are willing to spend $500 (or less) on a knife they can hand to their grandkid some day as an heirloom are a diminishing breed in a time when people are running themselves into irreparable debt just to drive a $40,000+ BMW/SUV/CarOfTheMoment (which they'll be rid of in 3-6 years) trying to impress some other people doing the same thing. (ok, end of rant on the latest generation of Conspicuous Consumers :) )

While I know the worth & value of paying a few hundred dollars for a custom crafted or semi-custom blade, the vast majority of buyers look only at the price, where cheaper (in their eyes) is better. And a Ginzu set looks real good to them.

The point they miss is the lower quality experience they have while using the cheaper tool. They fail to register the "cost" they pay in aggravation and jury-rigging they must go through to compensate for not paying the price to get a good tool up front. I think it's Melvin-Purvis whose tagline reads, "Buy quality and only cry once." I say, "Exactly!"

Since I don't believe in just whining about a problem without offering at least some sort of solution, here's mine:
Do any of you do a shootout "demo" of your knives against comparable commercial blades at the shows or when you're showing your wares to a potential vendor???

What I'm proposing is to spend some money to buy some of the commercial blades in a comparable size/style to what you are selling and set up a cutting/chopping/handling head-to-head demo to show how much tougher/stronger/sharper/balanced/finished your blades are. Maybe even let the potential customer perform some of the (simpler) tests. To paraphrase, "One cut is worth a thousand promotional words."

While some have spoken of finding and establishing yourself in a niche among the handmade market, it strikes me that you also must first (perhaps more importantly) seperate yourself from the commercial blades that can flog you in a "price only" comparison. A head-to-head demo may serve to show how the higher price gets the customer a MUCH BETTER performing blade.

Thx for your time & sorry this got so long,
Greg
 
Greg,

I commented to a local organizer about just that thing, a test area to show the qualities of a hand forged knife in a local knife and gun show. I wanted to show the swinging rope cut and chopping a 2"x4" into a couple of times and still shave hair test. But I was told that the liabilities would be to high, all it would take is 1 person to get a cut or a piece of wood chip in the face or eye and poof big law suit. With so many people on a sue happy mission you have to be careful doing tests for the people wanting to buy a knife even on your own property. Its ashame. But thats what I was told.:(

Bill
 
I had no idea so many of the makers here were having such a hard time making a go of it. What is most important is to pay the bills and put food on the table. If you have to get another job and make knives part time then that is what you have to do.

What quite often is the problem is that people who love to make knives may not be the best business men. It takes a great deal of skill to make a knife, but it is something that the maker loves to do. The tedious things that need to be done to make a business successful are quite often things that the maker is not very proficient at.

Making a great knife is of no use if very few people know you make a great knife. You have to somehow get your name out to as many of the knife buying public as possible. The forums are one avenue, shows are another. Word of mouth is the best advertising that there is. You have to get your satisfied customers to do a lot of your promotion for you. Whether it is here on Bladeforums or amongst their friends and associates you need the support of these people.

When I look at the number of knife makers that are competing for the buyers money I can see why it is so difficult for the new guys. It is an uphill battle to get your knives known. When the ecomony goes south that makes it even more difficult. I wish I had the money to buy a knife from everybody because I really like to support the makers that I feel do the job right. The problem is I don't have nearly enough money to do that. What you need to do is find customers that believe in you and your products enough to tell everyone that will listen how good you are to deal with and how grat your knives are. We are out there, and the the more satisfied customers you can develope the better your business will be.

This post has already been way to long, but I have come to know many of you from this forum and hope that you all can make a living doing what you love. I would hate to see the industry lose any of you. Do what it takes to make ends meet (anything legal that is) and follow your dream, and know that I will support you all as much as I can. Unfortunately my resources limit me to the purchase of only two or three knives a year, so I am not going to be of much help.
 
Man,this is not the thread I wanted to read today!I got a guy coming in an hour to buy my drag car way cheaper than it is worth,just so I can buy a Rob Frink Grinder.
It is not like I thought I could get a real grinder instead of my ancient 6x48,and sell knives,but I sure thought that if I got to where I could make a quality Knife like Bruce and Bill and some of the other kicka$$ makers here,I would have no problem selling them.
Now reading that Bruce and Bill and all you other guys are having trouble selling your knives,has about given me cold feet.
I am unemployed right now,there is no work around here,at least none that will give me a job.I thought I could make some knives and diggers and some stuff and help supplement my wifes income,which she is sick of by herself,but she knows I can't get a job around here without us moving.So now I don't know if I want to buy the grinder or pay the bills that need paid. :(
But I guess on the other hand,since grinders are so hard to find used,if this doesn't work out I could sell the grinder for most of the money back.But I know I will not want to once I get it.
Now I have alot more soul searching than I did before I read this thread,but still glad I did.I needed this to keep my hopes at a reasonable level.
I now wonder if I should buy a grizzly and try it first?Even though I HATE imported stuff.
 
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