Making My First Knife Questions.

E

engle's-wilder

Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
82
I have just recently gotten the urge to "make" my own knife. Really on my first, however, all I am wishing to accomplish is a designing of my own knife. I've been thinking about taking a knife blank that's already been tempered and taking off a good chunk of the blade to get it the shape I want it. The blade I'm thinking of modifying like this is actually found here:

http://www.usaknifemaker.com/santoku-knife-blank-14x-18-in-1095-p-2326.html

and yes.. it's a kitchen cleaver-type chef knife blank (1/8" thick).

It says that it's 1095 steel and only needs to be filed and grips put on (that's perfect for my purposes cause that's all I want to do). But my question is, will I have to go through the quenching and tempering process with this blank if I cut and shape the blade significantly? Is this thing able to be shaped however I want to without messing with tempering and quenching? If not what blanks are that I can make the shape I want to?

Hopefully that's not too confusing, thanks all!:o
 
Link states that the steel is annealed, meaning it hasn't been heat treated yet so yes, you will have to go through heat treating, quenching and tempering after you grind/cut/file the bevels into the blade. Granted, you said it was a cleaver and the link is for a santuko... Doing a quick scan of what Tracy has there they all seem to be annealed or "soft" and will have to be heat treated.
 
You want them to be soft (annealed), though. You wouldn't be able to file or work on it otherwise. I would start with one of those and then just send it out to have the heat treat done for you. It's pretty cheap. =)
 
For about the same price, you could buy a bar of steel and make quite a few smaller knives of your own design. More practice for the same amount of money. There is nothing wrong with buying a blank though if it's what you really want.
 
There are supply companies such as Jantz supply that have a wide range of blades already in a hardened condition- you may be able to find one that you wouldn't really have to modify to suit you. Then all you'd have to worry about is the handle work.

I see that your primary focus is to design your own, though- in that case it seems you are in for some considerable hack-sawing and hand-filing unless you have some power tools. An angle grinder is a great thing for messing around making your first couple knives.

Just watch out- before you know it you could be reading knife supply catalogs before bed, window shopping for a nice grinder, and hopelessly addicted to knife-making.

Don't say nobody warned you. Or do say it, I qualify as "nobody." Oh, and not to be a dick, but if the username is a little house on the prairie reference, it's "Ingalls-Wilder."
 
Wow that Jantz Supply site is amazing! I am wondering though... what items would I need to heat treat a steel I've cut out? None of the finished knives I look at are ever 1095 or quite the right shape... maybe it would just be worth it to do it myself and be satisfied!? Could I do this in the city on a 1/2 acre plot of land or do I need a special shop that's huge and got a lot of tools?
 
oh, by the way, it is a reference to Little House on the Prairie, but my last name is Engle and everyone used to think I was distantly related to Laura and her family... just a cheap pun I suppose!
 
engle's-wilder said:
Wow that Jantz Supply site is amazing! I am wondering though... what items would I need to heat treat a steel I've cut out? None of the finished knives I look at are ever 1095 or quite the right shape... maybe it would just be worth it to do it myself and be satisfied!? Could I do this in the city on a 1/2 acre plot of land or do I need a special shop that's huge and got a lot of tools?
Click to expand...

Here is a pic of a guy in a small spot.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9055651&postcount=18
 
wow! so what can I use to get a fire up to 1400-1500 degrees? campfire? with coals? what should the vessel be to hold the fire (we can't have ground fires, they have to be in something & I would like to not scare neighbors as they are often skittish!)?
thanks again guys!
 
Check out Green Pete's 4 part video's. I made a couple of knives from a leaf spring using his methods and they came out quite well.

[youtube]5ysKd1cswlo[/youtube]
 
If you know anyone with an oxy-acetylene torch you can get by with that for the quenching heat, and then use your kitchen oven to temper. Do use an oven thermometer, home ovens are pretty spotty with actual heat settings.

I usually recommend the book $50 knife shop by Wayne Goddard to anyone interested in making an informal knife or two to test the waters. He's really about low cost, use whatcha got knifemaking. Your public library may well have it.

Also, you may want to use a slightly more forgiving steel for H.T., at least for your first knife- 1084 is a good choice.

Sketchy puns are OK by me. I come from a family that indulges in them to a fault.
 
Have you seen this ?

The Standard Reply to Newbies v10

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms

Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E.Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website



Books

A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285

BladeForums - E-books or Google books
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
On the Google books thread, you can find
Lloyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.
Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

Machine Shop Tools-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable PDF


The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull, commercial quench oils are available, even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that is an advanced project that has no place in a beginners book.

The home built grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is now a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

The best video on leather sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 new videos, his sheath work is fantastic. I hope the videos are too)

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
They are slow to get new titles and wait times are measured in months,
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use A2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.

You can find a list of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Aldo is highly rated.
http://njsteelbaron.com/


Heat Treating
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921513000P?prdNo=3

Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466024


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html


Safety Equipment

Respirators

bladsmth said:
Those paper paint masks are about as effective as using a sock for a condom.
Click to expand...

The minimum I would consider are the 3M and North silicone half masks;
even better are the powered positive pressure fresh air systems.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309
 
Quote: "wow! so what can I use to get a fire up to 1400-1500 degrees? campfire? with coals? what should the vessel be to hold the fire (we can't have ground fires, they have to be in something & I would like to not scare neighbors as they are often skittish!)?"

I echo Salem Straub's suggestion about the $50 Knife Shop book. Go to your local library. I they don't have it maybe they can get it through inter-library loan. Mr Goddard talks about his one-brick forge. It's small, doesn't create sparks and ashes and apparently works. I'm going to make one of these some day, but until then I have been using a coffee can forge that burns homemade charcoal. Here's a picture.
Forgecoffeecanused03sm.jpg


You can't see the fan scavenged from a hot water heater that supplies the air. A hair drier or the exhaust of a shop vac could maybe be made to work. I generally use this in my driveway. It creates sparks and ashes and really makes the surface of your knife gnarly. A gas forge wouldn't do that.

A suggestion, The first time you do anything new you discover all sorts of things that you didn't know you needed to know but didn't know. Get some1/8-inch 1095 or O1 from Jantz and start out making a SMALL knife, like a paring knife. After you have that under your belt THEN take on the larger knife.

I am so excited for you, and saddened at the same time. Another life down the drain wasted making knives. Welcome to the club Brother. Better buy some band-aids.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
lonepine said:
I echo Salem Straub's suggestion about the $50 Knife Shop book.
Click to expand...

Libraries are a GREAT resource, but $50 Knife Shop by Wayne Goddard and How to Make Knives by Bob Loveless and Bill Moran are almost always in stock at the Barnes&Noble in Wausau, and can be found many places online. Get them both, you won't regret it :thumbup: Between the two, you will gain a very good base of information to build on. They're worth owning is my point.

Engle's-wilder and lonepine (and anyone else in WI), shoot me an email if you'd like to BS on the phone or stop by my humble shop for a visit :)
 
Last edited:
hey, I'm going to start reading that book! Checking out the library monday as suggested. But, I couldn't help but ask one more question...

could someone explain this to me:
http://www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?t=47259

this guy used a saw blade, dremeled it out and never heat treated, quenched, or tempered it... why is that? is that going to be soft as hell, or is that OK when using saw blade, but not on annealed steel or files?

thanks again guys, can't wait to start that read!
 
Because he omitted all of those steps, and used a steel that is essentially unknown, he will end up with a knife of dubious quality. He probably did it because he did not know any better.

engle's-wilder said:
hey, I'm going to start reading that book! Checking out the library monday as suggested. But, I couldn't help but ask one more question...

could someone explain this to me:
http://www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?t=47259

this guy used a saw blade, dremeled it out and never heat treated, quenched, or tempered it... why is that? is that going to be soft as hell, or is that OK when using saw blade, but not on annealed steel or files?

thanks again guys, can't wait to start that read!
Click to expand...
 
If he took his time and didn't screw up the heat treatment on the saw blade steel already done, could he file down an edge that would be hard and good enough to last (If he took his time, probably going through several files and taking hours upon hours of tedious work on it)? or is his technique just bunk and makes really awesome pieces of crap?
 
engle's-wilder said:
If he took his time and didn't screw up the heat treatment on the saw blade steel already done, could he file down an edge that would be hard and good enough to last (If he took his time, probably going through several files and taking hours upon hours of tedious work on it)? or is his technique just bunk and makes really awesome pieces of crap?
Click to expand...

If you had a piece of steel that was already heat treated, you can make a great knife from it with the proper tools and a bit of care.

For example, I heat treat many of my knives before I ever grind them. However, I'm using a KMG with ceramic belts to grind them and a digitally controlled oven for heat treat. I don't see how anyone could do this with a file as hardened steel is very difficult to work with.

The problem with making them out of random saw blades is that there are too many variables; at least for my liking. The guy does not know what kind of steel it is, or what kind of heat treat it has. Is the whole blade heat treated or just near the tips? Who knows? He mentions that he "heat treats" some of the knives, and does not on others. No reasoning is given. Too many variables.

It would be much easier to simply buy a bar of 1080 steel and go from there. It's cheaper and easier to work with. You can also do your own heat treat.
 
I say if he can chainsaw file and drill the "hard" saw blade, it is not going to be a good quality hardened blade.


I have knives make from hand bucksaw blades that were reheat treated that work well, but that was kniwn to be a quality high carbon steel, the maker had experience with.

For all that work, why not spend $ 10.00 or LESS for known good steel.


Check out the info i posted in post #12, you have links to that book plus others as well as much more info.
 
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