Manufacturing Questions: Ask the Kamis (or bishwakarmas :) )

C

Craig Gottlieb

Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Messages
1,760
Okay, although I can't actually get the bishwakarmas on line here (I don't think there's a computer in Dharan), I feel that I've learned a great deal from them about the steps involved in making a khukuri.

Did you know, for example, that they actually fabricate their own grinding wheels out of laha and a red red river sand found only in Nepal.

Did you know that the "magic stone" talked about on this and other forums before has a use: it's just a plain stone that is used to rub off some of the "burnt steel" and "grit" that sticks to the blade when it comes out of the forge for the last time? And that after they rub it with the stone, they use a chisel to finish the job?

Or, did you know that the metal handled khukuris (aluminum khukuri excepted) are made by pouring gobs and gobs of laha into a thick metal shell (brass usually) - and that THAT's why we get no vibration during use.

Or how about the dragon engraving: It's done AFTER the knives leave Dharan by a wood carver and his wife (the wood carver does the design and his wife fills in the details while he's at work!

As you can see, I learned quite a bit of interesting stuff about khukuri making, most of which will be displayed on our video when it's ready. Until then . . .

Does anybody have any questions about khukuri making. Mind you I don't purport to be a kami - only a good observer and learner. Ask away . . . any "stumpers" will be forwarded to Lalit to pass on to TB.

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
First, Craig, thanks for the great information. I'm really looking forward to the video (remember my post of long ago when I became the first to place an order for the video?) and expect it will be a big seller. I'm sure that some public-service TV stations would be interested in it as a documentary. Do you have any kind of a guesstimate as to when it will be available?

Secondly, can you tell me at what stage of khukuri production is the "Sword of Shiva" engraved? Is it after the blades are finished or while they're still hot and relativley soft?

Also, how much grinding is required to finish the blade? Specifically, are the kamis able to get the blade near-perfect by hammering it into shape, thereby requiring very little grinding, or is grinding a major part of the actual shaping. And finally, at what stage is the quenching done, and is it done only once to each blade?
 
Steven: Yes, I do remember your "first to the plate" order for the video. If I could serialize it, I would
smile.gif
I expect it'll take about a month to do it up - nothing fancy - just the footage and some narration where appropriate. We are going to send a copy off to discovery to see if there's interest - I think there may be, since the tape shows more than just the making of a historical knife - it shows the viewer the people behind the tradition - the bishwakarma, his life, stories, etc. We even have the story of how Padam Bahadur Shankar, a 73 year old Kami, lost his eye when he was a young knife maker (40 years ago). It was a story that made us weep, and we applauded when we heard it.

As for your manufacturing questions, here are the answers:

Can you tell me at what stage of khukuri production is the "Sword of Shiva" engraved? Is it after the blades are finished or while they're still hot and relativley soft?
Click to expand...

Good question, Steven - the "sword of shiva" (from what I learned, a purely western name for the design) pattern is engraved after the knife has been forged but before it has been tempered. In other words, the blade has been beaten (first by two sledgehammer wielding apprentices, and then by the bishwakarma to give shape to the piece) and heated, but not tempered. At the time of the engraving, the piece is cool (so the bishwakarma can touch it).

Also, how much grinding is required to finish the blade? Specifically, are the kamis able to get the blade near-perfect by hammering it into shape, thereby requiring very little grinding, or is grinding a major part of the actual shaping. And finally, at what stage is the quenching done, and is it done only once to each blade?
Click to expand...

The only grinding that is done is aesthetic. The shape is entirely finished using only hammers and heat (amazing, isn't it!). The edge does get a bit of honing using a grinding wheel, which, believe it or not, is fabricated by hand using hardened Laha and red river sand! There is also some minor filing on the spine to give it the unique shape you find on the back of a khukuri (sort of like a point).

As for the quenching (tempering), the blade is tempered only once (and only on the blade) by pouring water from a kettle down the edge where it runs off onto the ground. Yes, they cool the blade during the forging process so they can apply the "sword of shiva" and any inlay, but due to re-heating, any hardening that came from the cooling is lost in the forge again.

Any other questions?
smile.gif




------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Another question, Craig. How long does it take the average kami, if he works non-stop, to make a standard khukuri?
 
Steven: The khukuri, from start to finish (including the scabbard) is made by several people. The bishwakarma who does the actual forging is responsible only for selecting steel, forging the blade, and fitting the handle and brass onto the blade. The scabbard, chakmak and karda are made by another junior worker. Actually, the scabbard is made by a Sarki, who is an expert in his own right.

However, to make one khukuri takes about 3 man days (that is, if one person was trained and made the khukuri from start to finish, it would take him 3 days).

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
I posted this topic in another forum and they sent me over here. I was checking out the photos of Nara and his son working in their shop and am most impressed. This is exactly what I try to emulate with my work. My shop is very simular to Nara's and I wish I knew of a way to pick his brain on techniques and tools. I'm sure I could learn a lot from him. Are y'all in contact with other smiths? The other forum said they haven't heard from Nara in a few years. Where do I go to see info on the video? I came in through the back door of this forum somehow. There are just precious few knifemakers who can work without electricity and gas and epoxy. Especially is the West. In fact as far as I know I am the only Professional Knifemaker who works full time without electricity in the US. I don't have a son to use as an apprentice like Nara, and students here in the US don't last long at working this way. Most students that come to my shop take a look around and start saying stuff like You know what You need is a grinder and a ... I use to have all of that stuff and got rid of it so that I could become more intimate with my work. Handmade all the way. Most smiths don't understand that kind of thinking. And precious few collectors do either.
I would really like to know more about their techniques. Is there anyway to exchange infomation on knifemaking with these master smiths? For example: What kind of mixture is he using for a glue or epoxy? I am using a mix of deer dung, pinion pine pitch and a little charcoal dust for a blacker color.
Tim http://www.livelyknives.com
 
Lively,

Unfortunately, the only way to contact the kamis is through me (or by visiting Nepal and then taking a plane to Dharan). However, I do have answers to most of the questions about their techniques, as I spent two days living with and recording these masters at work (I'm by no means an expert, but do have some "first hand knowledge").

The glue they are using is called Laha and is made using mostly a gummy substance that comes from a particular insect's nest. I will be getting the exact recipe from TB shortly, which I will post here (due to time constraints, I never did get the recipe from him).

Their tools are very simiple: hammers, files, chisels, and hand-operated forges that operate with a hand-crank. The ONLY thing they use a machine for is to give their finished products a shiney polish (and even then, their cloth wheels are VERY dirty and their rouge is very cheap).

I commend you on your "back to basics" approach. Because you seem to make knives with the same connection to your work as the bishwakarmas, you can appreciate first hand the great value in each piece we offer. The only reason they are so inexpensive is because we don't exploit the difference in economies between third-world Nepal and the industrial prices of the West.

Welcome to the forum, and we hope you will be a frequent contributor - you certainly have much to offer in the way of knife making expertise.

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Thanks Craig,
I surfed your site and it's very cool! Is Lalit Kumar Lama a shop foreman of sorts for many Biswakarmas? I sure would like to see more of their shop photos. I would appreciate hearing the recipe for Laha. You mentioned that they use a hand crank blower for an air source, here's what I use, are they like this one? Is there any information that I could share with them? I would like to share something in return if possible.
I fully agree with you that their knives are extreme bargins for the obvious effort they put into each one of their fine handmade knives.
<img src=http://www.photoloft.com/exportimage.asp?i=1628930&w=300&h=225></A>


[This message has been edited by lively (edited 05-23-2000).]
 
Craig, I think it's pretty obvious that your video is gonna be in great demand once it's available. I think it has major potential both as a marketing tool for GH and as a "stand-alone" item. Such things as this benefit the entire knife fraternity.
 
Lively: That's almost exactly what the bishwakarmas use. The "fitting" where the air comes out is fitted into a brick "shield" behind which they sit. The coals and the thing to be heated sit in front of it. I wish you'd joined the forum earlier, as I would have been able to do a lot more in the way of personal contact on your behalf with the bishwakarmas. However, based upon what I've seen, perhaps you could share with them a paragraph about steel "folding" like they do on samurai swords. There's not much steel folding in the forging process as they do it - if it would help, then tell them about it. Remember, though, that they are probably pretty set in their ways. The only reason they'd change is if a new technique did two things: 1) improved their product, and 2) brought them more money. I would be HAPPY to pay more money if they could somehow improve their product (not much room for improvement anymore, though).

Steven: As for the video, I'm going to start editing just as soon as I can get some good editing software. I'm going to put up a post about that in the hopes that one of the forumites has some software we could borrow for the project (it's VERY expensive to buy).

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
A basic weld can be performed by bringing the pieces to be joined up to a red heat. Sprinkle the surfaces with charcoal ash or wood ash for flux. The ash will stick to the steel and will look like a fuzzy cocoon. Then bring the steel up to a yellowish orange color or buttery color. Steel without ash on it will begin to spark at this temperature. This is a welding heat. The color needed is something you must play with a little in the ambient light of each forge. It maybe a tone or two different at extreme elevations. The ash flux will begin to melt and flow slightly. Join the pieces at the welding temp with light to moderature blows. If the Biswakarmas are joining the steels together for a contrast in color then I would suggest experimenting with adding some saw blade steels together with the leaf springs they are using. Saw blades usually have some nickel in them and provides the shiney part of the contrast. I'm guessing they probably already know how to forge weld for tools here and there but if not this will get anyone going for quite a while.
I understand that the Biswakarmas have problems with obtaining charcoal? Do you know if they make their own or buy it from the local colliers(charcoal makers)?
 
Charcoal doesn't seem to be a problem, as I saw bags and bags of it sitting around. And yes, it is bought locally from charcoal makers - never hurts to specialize!
smile.gif


------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Do they generally hot chisel the leaf spring to a rough shape and then forge it? Or do they just forge the corners in and shape it that way?
 
Lively: They only hot-chisel the blank to the appropriate length, and also cut out using a chisel a square of metal near the tang. But as far as shaping, they forge the whole thing from a square blank into the final shape - in other words, they don't "cut corners!" (my sense of humor is very dry, but I couldn't resist that one.

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Craig, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm not sure "dry" is the word to best describe your sense of humor.
biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Steven F (edited 05-26-2000).]
 
Wow. That surprizes me. I don't think one way is better than the other I was just wondering. When I have the extra hands available I chisel the rough shape but when I work alone it's easier to forged the corners in.
Thanks,
Tim

[This message has been edited by lively (edited 05-26-2000).]
 
Does the "hammering in" of the corners produce stronger steel result? That's what I figured, since you are not cutting metal away, but "jamming it together."

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Does the "hammering in" of the corners produce stronger steel result? That's what I figured, since you are not cutting metal away, but "jamming it together."

------------------
Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
That's a big debate between bladesmiths Craig. I personally feel most of the "magic" you get out of steel is due to the heat treatment. But I do believe there are some attributes to the forged blade. The problem is proving it. I think there is something to the stretching out process more than the upsetting or bunching up of the steel. I think when it's stretched it pulls the crysaline structure in line and possibly making the blade stronger in flexibility. The blade can be bent farther and return to true. This is only my theory and far from proven fact. I believe a blade can be over heat treated to where anything you did during the forging process is wiped clean during the heat treatment. If my theory is correct then it would stand to reason that the techniques the Bishwakarmas use would be optimum. It's one step simplicity would leave the most forging attributes in the blade.

[This message has been edited by lively (edited 05-27-2000).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top