Many sharpening questions.

C

Chapp

Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Messages
190
There are so many speaking from their ass on internet, I read so many conflicted report on how to sharpen a knife. I thought I would ask people how really know about it.

Ok, so here's my setup :

A Rat-2, an Opinel 7 inox. Two wetsones : 600 grit and 1000 grit.

- First precision, I don't want to use anything but wetstones. I want to learn how to use them.
- Second precision, I won't buy more than two wetstones and I don't care about satin finish on the blade. I want my knives sharp, but I could care less about how shiny and beautiful they look.
- Third precision, I want to use the first technique in the video below :


(You can see it at 30s). I don't want to go slow on the wetstones, I want the job to be done fast.

First thing is : I'm afraid to remove too much material. Should I be ? How much is a knife supposed to last you ? Let's say I sharpen my rat-2 two times a day, how much time will it last ?

Second thing is : When I'm sharpening, the blade often goes on the corner and I think it kills all my work. Is there a solution for that ?

Third thing, for the life of me, I can't sharpen the Rat-2. What angle should I do it ? How to find that angle without fail ? How to maintain it ? How much time should I spend on it ?

Please, refrain from speaking from your ass or arguing over petty matters. If you don't sharpen your knife yourself, if you don't use wetstones, if you're only here to share what you heard or read on internet, please refrain from participating.
 
You'd be better off in the Maintenance forum than General.
You can ask the mod to move it.
 
I was going to skip this but . . . what the heck . . . I'll bite.
First off I would refer you to the yellow posts at the top of this forum, The Maintenance, Tinkering and Embellishment forum. They are called "Stickies" and are there to help with basic questions.

I was going to skip this question for two reasons :
1. I use an Edge Pro Apex sharpening jig almost exclusively and like polished edges (because they cut better).
2. I find sharpening on bench stones a pain in the rear and the results are still far less than what I can get off a jig by about a mega mile. I have been hand sharpening since I was a little kid (fifty years now). I still think it sucks. Sure I can do it and even get shave sharp edges.

What advice do I have to offer ? Especially in regard to the difficulty sharpening the knife you have (not specifically a Rat2 ) : I would say you may find you have a faster and higher quality experience if you allow yourself at least one more stone at least to get the edge to get sharp the first time . . . I would recommend getting a coarser stone such as a 220 or even a 120. Once you get an edge off that then if you keep up the edge and not let it get too dull you may not have to use the 220 or 120 except for other knives you get that don't respond to your 600 stone.

I hope this helps.
PS: yes hand sharpening can cost you more blade wear than using a jig . . . it's just part of the learning curve. The more accurate you get at holding your blade angle the less steel you will loose.
 
Chapp said:
What angle should I do it ? How to find that angle without fail ?
Click to expand...
Look up "The Sharpie Technique". The Sharpie meaning a magic marker.
You may even have to look at the edge with some kind of high magnification to see if you are removing the marker ink all the way down to the edge.

You don't need to know the angle in degrees you just need to know you are abrading the blade right on the edge known here as "The Apex".

It helps on very dull knives that are hard to sharpen with a 600 stone to first abrade the material behind the edge so the angle of the sharpening bevel down to the edge is not too wide / steep or too rounded over. That is where the 220 or 120 stone is going to help you. Removing the material first behind the edge is called "Reprofiling".
Reprofiling with a coarse stone is one of the very most important things I learned about sharpening, be it on a bench stone hand held or with a sharpening jig.
To repeat : use a very coarse stone and make the area just behind the edge flatter and thinner.
 
You want to be able to sharpen your knives very quickly, like the fellow in the video. I understand that, but I'll bet he didn't start out sharpening that fast. Just like in martial arts, dance, playing a musical instrument, or any other physical activity, start out slow with good form. As you build muscle memory, you can go faster and some of the problems you are having with maintaining a consistent angle and not running the tip off the corner will take care of themselves.

Chapp said:
Please, refrain from speaking from your ass or arguing over petty matters. If you don't sharpen your knife yourself, if you don't use wetstones, if you're only here to share what you heard or read on internet, please refrain from participating.
Click to expand...
When you are asking other people to take the time to help you by answering your questions, it might be beneficial to be a little more polite and less confrontational. Honey Vs. Vinegar, you know? And yes, I sharpen my own knives with whetstones.
 
Wowbagger said:
Look up "The Sharpie Technique". The Sharpie meaning a magic marker.
You may even have to look at the edge with some kind of high magnification to see if you are removing the marker ink all the way down to the edge.

You don't need to know the angle in degrees you just need to know you are abrading the blade right on the edge known here as "The Apex".

It helps on very dull knives that are hard to sharpen with a 600 stone to first abrade the material behind the edge so the angle of the sharpening bevel down to the edge is not too wide / steep or too rounded over. That is where the 220 or 120 stone is going to help you. Removing the material first behind the edge is called "Reprofiling".
Reprofiling with a coarse stone is one of the very most important things I learned about sharpening, be it on a bench stone hand held or with a sharpening jig.
To repeat : use a very coarse stone and make the area just behind the edge flatter and thinner.
Click to expand...

Is there a picture of the angle I should sharpen the knife ? Apex doesn't mean much to me. It's hard to picture.

r8shell said:
You want to be able to sharpen your knives very quickly, like the fellow in the video. I understand that, but I'll bet he didn't start out sharpening that fast. Just like in martial arts, dance, playing a musical instrument, or any other physical activity, start out slow with good form. As you build muscle memory, you can go faster and some of the problems you are having with maintaining a consistent angle and not running the tip off the corner will take care of themselves.
Click to expand...

Of course, I'm willing to learn to do it that fast.

Wowbagger said:
PS: yes hand sharpening can cost you more blade wear than using a jig . . . it's just part of the learning curve. The more accurate you get at holding your blade angle the less steel you will loose.
Click to expand...

Ok, so my logic wasn't flawed. The more you sharpen a knife, or train sharpening it, you shorten the span of its life. You don't see that being brought a lot, although it's very important. Some people buy expensive knives as their first knives and learn to sharpen with those, which seems like wasting money.

We should always train on cheap knives then.
 
Last edited:
If you start off like the guy in the video your never going to get a fully apexed knife with an even angle. That is the result of years of practise. IMHO you are better off starting to free hand with a two handed technique. One hand gripping the handle and applying pressure to the heel and one hand resting on the blade at the point of contact with the stone. If you use one hand you will find you vary the pressure you are putting on the knife and will certainly struggle with the heel of the blade.
The answers to your questions regarding what an apex is are all answered in great detail in this post:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-seven-secrets-of-sharpening-redux.1628756/

How long will your knife last? It depends... if you are simply regularly touching up an already sharp knife with a fine stone then the amount of metal you will be removing will be insignificant. If you have to repair a chip or worse you will be removing a lot more metal.

I second the comments regarding the aggressivesness of your first post - it’s not the way things are done here and from your perspective completely counter productive.
 
Last edited:
Hey chapp, I like your goals, and as it’s been said before practice is a huge part of it but don’t get too concern with perfection if what you want is only a sharp blade.
For the speed you want you need only two stones, the problem I see is that 600 is a little high for establishing a new bevel quick, specially if the stone is not diamond.
For ages a double sided India stone coarse/fine(150/400 or similar stones) is all that was used. quickly establish the edge on the coarse and refine a little with the fine, then maybe five passes on a leather belt or the top of a boot and ready, total time about 30 seconds. With 600 you have to match the existing angle in order to sharpen instead of grinding a new bevel every time with the technique above, this involving more precision in angle control.

In the video I think cliff is using something like 60 grit.

Don’t be too concern with steel loss, I’ve been carrying the same knife everyday for 4 years more or less and sharpening everyday or couple of days, I’ve lost maybe 2 mm of spine to edge thickness.
But more important is the need to regrind the face of the blade when the edge becomes too thick or all the speed in sharpening and cutting performance decreases, I’ve done that 2 or 3 times in 4 years.
Anyway hope it helps
I’m here for any questions or clarification needed
Regards
Edited to add:
One of the best ways and quick of knowing if you’ve reached the apex is looking for the reflection of the edge in a bright light
 
lutejones said:
With 600 you have to match the existing angle in order to sharpen instead of grinding a new bevel every time with the technique above, this involving more precision in angle control.
Click to expand...

I agree and if the edge has gotten pretty dull or damaged (doesn't take much; just taking the edge across a staple or a bit of good size grit in something you are working on) then one finds one's self making the angle steeper just to get on the edge to sharpen it . . . this turns into a bad habit and before you know it you are sharpening at angles like 54° inclusive (27° per side) and the hope of getting it satisfyingly sharp hand held in this range is pretty slim.

(my sharpening jigs can easily and regularly create an edge that literally shaves curls off a single hair at this extreme edge angle . . . but . . . hand sharpening is a worthy goal . . . a challenge at best . . . a waste of time at worst . . . shrug)

In the video I think cliff is using something like 60 grit.
Click to expand...
He's a wild man isn't he !
He even dares to use thin blades and extremely shallow angles !
Blasphemous ! ! !
Go man go !
 
Get a sharpening stone you want and look up sharpening angle wedges, they will help you in being consistent. Consistenty is one of the big things you have to learn how to do when you sharpen.

The goal is to get a fully apexed edge that is free of defects. There are several ways to get there. There is no real wrong way, it's the end result that matters so don't get hung up on someone's technique just practice and see what feels right for you.

Practicing on a cheaper knife of decent quality is preferred but truth be told it takes a long time to wear down a blade from sharpening. I have two I've done that to. One I bought to practice sharpening on and it's been reprofiled and sharpened hundreds of times easily. The second is my most used work knife and I abuse it badly where it's not uncommon I do one task and I have to resharpen it to bring back the edge I just destroyed and it's been used for years on the job quite frequently.

I use the technique shown with great affect with my Worksharp field sharpener, they have a pocket sharpener version out now too. It's a thinner strip of diamond so it will remove metal at a slower pace but it might work with blades with a small recurve. Either way their quite fast once the proper angle is set on the diamond, than the ceramic adds a microbevel. It's a bit obtuse by most of our standards on the mainence forum at 20dps for diamond and 25dps for the ceramic but the big trade-off is ease of sharpening and speed. I actually should pick up the pocket version for my work vest the field one was a bit bulky for my chest pocket. I hate to admit it but no matter how hard I try it's quicker and easier to use guides to obtain good results.
 
I have to add that the only time you really need to worry about removing too much metal is with electronic belt setups, or those horrendous carbide pull through things. If you sharpen to a burr whether you are using benchstones or a jig setup, you are only ever removing just enough metal to make the blade sharp again. I have a Cold Steel hunter in 52100 that I sharpen almost daily simply for the fun of it (it's my practice knife, so I can keep my techniques sharp) and I still haven't removed enough metal to be visibly perceptible at all. The depth of my .25" sharpening notch is still measuring .25" by the eye using a ruler (indicating not a lack of any wear at all--that's obviously not possible--but simply a tiny amount, thousandths of an inch of wear)
 
Regarding belt setups you can certainly wear alot of metal away. But it is recommended that you work on junker knives or even an old hack saw blade to find your way around.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top