Market pricing trends compared to collecting trends- for discussion

[J. Doyle]

This, like most topics, I'm sure has been brought up before so I apologize if it has. But it's new to me so bear with me.

I've noticed a couple disturbing trends, mostly on the forums, lately and it raises some observations and maybe some questions.

I watch the "Exchange" forum quite a bit and even post a couple knives there for sale occasionally. I like to see what's selling, who's selling and buying, for what price and how quickly. It is an ongoing attempt to help me with my own pricing, a very difficult aspect of being a knife maker for a living.

Trend #1: If a knife doesn't sell in the first go around in the exchange, often after a day or two only, the seller drops the price, sometimes drastically.

Trend #2: There are makers of all different quality levels that offer knives for sale at a fraction of what they are worth in the current market.

As for trend #1, does this make buyers and collectors just have a 'wait and see' mindset? It seems so prevalent that I wonder if that's what collectors come to expect-- That the price starts high and makers are always willing to come down in price. Pricing is difficult for me even though I try to price my knives fairly. I don't personally know of any makers that are just gouging prices because they can and don't know too many that could even if they wanted to (though I'm sure there are some).

Trend #2 is almost more disturbing to me than trend #1. With the second scenario, a maker may have a different full time job (or working spouse) that pays the bills so if their sales cover their material costs, they're happy. This really seems like it hits the full time makers hard. In this trend, you can be very good at marketing and pricing your wares appropriately, and when you post something on the exchange, you're still likely behind the eight ball anyway because of a hobby maker undervaluing his time and craftsmanship. The other side of this coin is that there are makers that charge much more than the knife is actually worth. I think the market pretty much weeds these out all on it's own fairly quickly. I try not to be guilty of this too and I think that most makers that are trying to make an honest living at this usually aren't WAY high on their prices. Maybe a little bit but nothing too extreme.

Kind of tied in- I've heard comments about my knives and some of my knife maker friends' knives like, "I like that knife but it's way too pretty or fancy to use." Or it's too expensive. So you make something less expensive by knocking off details and embellishments and utilize more 'field grade' working finishes and then the same people don't like it because it doesn't have all the nice features of your other knives. Or worse yet, the say "Why would I pay $xxx dollars for a no frills, belt finished g-10 handled user when I can get a forged damascus or san mai blade with a guard and spacers and ironwood handle for only $20 more than $xxx?" Which leads us back to Trend #2.

Do these trends dictate the collecting market? A full time maker trying to make a living has it pretty rough when he has stripped away all the elements that he can to produce a still good looking and performance driven piece that's priced at his rock bottom point, only to have it still priced higher (or almost higher) than some hobby maker's nicer pieces.

I'd love to hear input from anyone but especially some seasoned maker's views on how to overcome these scenarios and from some collectors on how these trends dictate the market price, if they do at all.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Very good topic John. It will be interesting to hear knifemaker's opinions on this subject.

From a collector's perspective, I sell a fare amount of knives (mostly high-end pieces) as I adjust my collection. I display my entire collection so as I receive new knives there's times when others have to go to make room. I have never had a problem selling knives or getting what they are worth. I'm very patient though and I realize a quality knife will eventually sell if offered at a fair/realistic price. Forum's "for sale" areas are the last place I go to sell a knife for the same reason you list in Trend #1.

If I were a knifemaker I would hate to have to depend on making a living from selling my knives only via forum listings. The exception would be knifemakers who have a very large following on a particular forum. I could name a couple makers as examples but you know who they are.

Forums do IMO offer a knifemaker a great place to showcase their knives and promote themselves thus creating a market for themselves however there's better methods for actually selling your knives. Custom knives sold via forum's classifieds areas make up a small % of all custom knives sold.

You are correct, legitimate "Full Time" knifemakers (full time makers who don't depend on other family income) have a very difficult time making a living competing with part-time and hobbyist knifemakers. That's why probably less than 10% of custom knifemakers can survive making and selling knives full time.

 

[Dave Behrens]

We are in a buyers' market. People never "need" a custom knife, and nowadays people have much less disposable income, and additionally most are completely ignorant about the custom knife world and what goes into making a good quality knife.

As for hobbyists pricing to low, it probably does make it more difficult for a career maker to sell his knives at a higher price, but that's life. As for buyers, of course if a buyer can get equal, better, or even less (in some cases) quality, for a lower price they will, and they will change there future consumerist expectations for similar products.

Trend #1 - I have noticed(maybe I'm wrong), if a knife doesn't sell within 24-48 hrs of being listed it's chance of selling at all drop exponentially, which may cause the maker to lower the price in hope of it actually selling. A more expensive knife left unsold is worth nothing.

Trend #2 - Yes I would agree this is true, and I believe it does hurt full-time makers ability to sell at higher prices, but I don't believe there is anything to be done about it.

Knife making is a highly competitive field especially for career makers, these are just some of the current and more prevalent challenges.

As for overcoming these challenges..........

 

[Dave Behrens]

Unintended double post....I would love if this site ran smooth for me for just one day.............sorry just getting fed up with tech issues.

 

[Dave Behrens]

Very good topic John. It will be interesting to hear knifemaker's opinions on this subject.

From a collector's perspective, I sell a fare amount of knives (mostly high-end pieces) as I adjust my collection. I display my entire collection so as I receive new knives there's times when others have to go to make room. I have never had a problem selling knives or getting what they are worth. I'm very patient though and I realize a quality knife will eventually sell if offered at a fair/realistic price. Forum's "for sale" areas are the last place I go to sell a knife for the same reason you list in Trend #1.

If I were a knifemaker I would hate to have to depend on making a living from selling my knives only via forum listings. The exception would be knifemakers who have a very large following on a particular forum. I could name a couple makers as examples but you know who they are.

Forums do IMO offer a knifemaker a great place to showcase their knives and promote themselves thus creating a market for themselves however there's better methods for actually selling your knives. Custom knives sold via forum's classifieds areas make up a small % of all custom knives sold.


You are correct, legitimate "Full Time" knifemakers (full time makers who don't depend on other family income) have a very difficult time making a living competing with part-time and hobbyist knifemakers. That's why probably less than 10% of custom knifemakers can survive making and selling knives full time.

I do think it depends highly on what level of knives your are selling/making, the top tiers of the industry are geared towards those who always have large amounts of disposable income or are just plain frivolous.

The lowest level makers often sell cheap enough for Mr. Joe-everyman, an below a lot of mid-tech, and factory knives even, they often also are not expecting a profit of any kind.

The mid level, career maker(most of the knife-making industry) have it the hardest. They have to make a profit, and compete with factory, mid-tech, upper and lower-class makers for buyers. To nice to use, not cheap enough to sell. It is a hard sale to make.

As for not depending on the sale forum...From your keyboard...to God's...eyes...I guess... Wish I had a local knife shop, but it is not 1950 anymore...

 

[Kevin Jones]

I do think it depends highly on what level of knives your are selling/making, the top tiers of the industry are geared towards those who always have large amounts of disposable income or are just plain frivolous.

The lowest level makers often sell cheap enough for Mr. Joe-everyman, an below a lot of mid-tech, and factory knives even, they often also are not expecting a profit of any kind.

The mid level, career maker(most of the knife-making industry) have it the hardest. They have to make a profit, and compete with factory, mid-tech, upper and lower-class makers for buyers. To nice to use, not cheap enough to sell. It is a hard sale to make.

As for not depending on the sale forum...From your keyboard...to God's...eyes...I guess... Wish I had a local knife shop, but it is not 1950 anymore...

Good points, however I think there's a few knifemakers out there who don't depend primarily on forums for knife sales or have a local knife shop, who do ok.
It's definitely not an easy career or one that one can expect to make A LOT of $$ at.

 

[Dave Behrens]

Good points, however I think there's a few knifemakers out there who don't depend primarily on forums for knife sales or have a local knife shop, who do ok.
It's definitely not an easy career or one that one can expect to make A LOT of $$ at.

I know there are and I wish I was one of them. I will be someday, but for now it's Bladeforums or bust.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I know there are and I wish I was one of them. I will be someday, but for now it's Bladeforums or bust.

Do you do many shows? Of course shows require time and money to attend and of course no guarantee that you will sell knives.
Shows can be looked upon as investments in your in your future as a knifemaker, no easy answers.

 

[J. Doyle]

Good points guys.

Trend #1 - I have noticed(maybe I'm wrong), if a knife doesn't sell within 24-48 hrs of being listed it's chance of selling at all drop exponentially, which may cause the maker to lower the price in hope of it actually selling. A more expensive knife left unsold is worth nothing.

I know what you're saying and believe that's probably the case some time. I think if a knife went to 2 or 3 shows and a few rounds on the forums classifieds, that would tell you something about the price. But after a day or two, or even a week or two, a massive price drop would indicate desperation and/or panic. I really believe that it hurts the whole industry.

I know that the issues will never be eliminated. I guess like anything, it's about education. Knives of similar quality, should be similarly priced in a perfect world.

In any trade, like construction for instance, bids are close and competitive and no one likes to have their bid cut in half by anyone.

I, fortunately, don't rely on the forums for my sales. I occasionally do offer some pieces on there but it's a very small percentage. Most of my blades are commissioned pieces or sold on my email list before they ever make it to the forums.

I typically don't lower my prices much. I place them at what I feel is a good balance between a fair price for the collector and what I have to have for them to be profitable and continue my business.

I do have a hard time with the folks that want the best of both worlds, that is they want a top tier knife with all the embellishment for a no frills working/using knife with field grade finish price. I guess you'll always have that.

Kevin, can you elaborate about better avenues to move knives than forum classifieds, other than having pieces commissioned? Are dealers and purveyors good options, especially for someone attempting to get their works out there and get their name out there?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Good points guys.
I think if a knife went to 2 or 3 shows and a few rounds on the forums classifieds, that would tell you something about the price. I really believe that it hurts the whole industry.

Not only tells you something about the price but perhaps you've misjudged what the buyer/collector wants.

You are right, dropping prices does have a negative impact the whole industry.

 

[Dave Behrens]

Do you do many shows? Of course shows require time and money to attend and of course no guarantee that you will sell knives.
Shows can be looked upon as investments in your in your future as a knifemaker, no easy answers.

Unfortunately my area is super dry when it comes to trade/craft shows, they are very small time, and maybe only once or twice a year total. I would like to try a few shows, just need to find the right opportunity. No easy answers, never have been, never will be. Work Harder

 

[bbingenheimer]

John, Good Topic.

Are dealers and purveyors good options, especially for someone attempting to get their works out there and get their name out there

Short answer yes to the above quote

this is also being discussed over in shop talk.
and to quote my good buddy Chuck Bybee "Marketing, Marketing, Marketing every day".

Many other ideas I'm sure

Bing

 

[JParanee]

Standing out making one of mans earliest and favorite tools is certainly a difficult endeavor

This is what we are really talking about

How to become visible and in demand in a sea of makers

In effect developing a brand.

Bob Kramer comes to mind

Is it luck ? or sublime skill

Maybe a little of both

Most people say that the harder they work the luckier they get

 

[Kevin Jones]

John, I approach this more from a collector's perspective, but I feel that some of the same methods can work for either the collector or maker selling knives.

Some makers have been successful working with purveyors, especially early on in their careers. A good purveyor has the ability and contacts to promote you and get your knives in front of buyers who want to and are able to purchase them. Some purveys can help find these buyers thus cultivating a market for you. Even though the purveys are going to take a percentage, it's important IMO that a knifemaker have a consistent and thought out pricing structure. I feel a maker is often better off working with a purveyor to establish a pricing structure acceptable for both maker and buyers as opposed to selling a particular model knife on a forum for a different price every time they list it.

I feel a maker needs a successful business, marketing and sales plan to be successful. Makers need to offer their knives via a good, informative, exciting and up to date website and have a mailing list of collectors who are interested in their work. Go to as many shows as possible that cater to the type knives you create. Also go outside the box to create knives that have potential to broaden your customer base.

Don't just look at a show as an opportunity to sell the knives on your table but to more an opportunity promote yourself and your knives. Network as it's all about increasing contacts and putting you and your knives 'out there'.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

A lot of issues mixed in there, but a couple of things struck me.

"There are makers of all different quality levels that offer knives for sale at a fraction of what they are worth in the current market."

What makes you think that? And how do you define "worth?"

I think that a knife, like most things, is worth whatever a willing buyer and a willing seller agree that it is worth. I guess if a maker is selling all of his knives and they are always immediately being flipped for twice the sales price, then one could say that he is offering knives for sale at a fraction of what they are worth. And that happens. But I think it is an extremely small number of makers, and over time it seems to tend to correct itself as the makers tend to increase the prices to capture some/most of that secondary markup. So I do not think it is prevalent or a big force on the overall market.

"they want a top tier knife with all the embellishment for a no frills working/using knife with field grade finish price."

Uh, yeah. Where and when do folks not want to get the best possible _____ (fill in the blank: house, car, knife) they can for the least possible money?

"Knives of similar quality, should be similarly priced in a perfect world.

If you are talking about "using knives" then maybe that makes sense.

If you are talking "collecting knives" that makes no sense at all to me. For example, imagine an unsigned painting at some antique store for sale for a couple of hundreds of bucks that thousands of folks saw and disregarded . . . until someone bought it and was able to prove it was actually painted by Rembrandt. And we know things like that have happened. Of course you understand that the couple of hundred dollars painting is now "worth" millions. But it is the same painting and the "quality" has not changed one iota.

The "worth" of a collectible item depends on a huge host of factors beyond intrinsic quality. That applies to cars, watches, guns, books, knives . . . anything folks collect. Give me an original Loveless knife from Riverside and set it next to a beautiful Loveless-style knife by any of a half dozen excellent makers. I can assure you that in many cases the knives by these other makers will be of superior quality to the knife from Loveless himself. But all other things being equal, the Loveless "original" still will be "worth" more. A lot more.

When it comes to knives, do not discount the importance of a maker's name, fame and reputation on the "worth" of his knives to collectors. In some sectors of the market, it is the most important factor - almost the only factor. There are reasons that some makers have a very difficult time making ends meet, and a few select makers have collectors climbing over each other to spend $10K, $20K, $30K and more for one of their knives. And those reasons cannot always or completely be explained by intrinsic quality.

"In any trade, like construction for instance, bids are close and competitive and no one likes to have their bid cut in half by anyone."

No. But buyers love it and will take advantage of it every time the opportunity is presented. It's a tough world out there! Good luck!

 

[JParanee]

John, I approach this more from a collector's perspective, but I feel that some of the same methods can work for either the collector or maker selling knives.

Some makers have been successful working with purveyors, especially early on in their careers. A good purveyor has the ability and contacts to promote you and get your knives in front of buyers who want to and are able to purchase them. Some purveys can help find these buyers thus cultivating a market for you. Even though the purveys are going to take a percentage, it's important IMO that a knifemaker have a consistent and thought out pricing structure. I feel a maker is often better off working with a purveyor to establish a pricing structure acceptable for both maker and buyers as opposed to selling a particular model knife on a forum for a different price every time they list it.

I feel a maker needs a successful business, marketing and sales plan to be successful. Makers need to offer their knives via a good, informative, exciting and up to date website and have a mailing list of collectors who are interested in their work. Go to as many shows as possible that cater to the type knives you create. Also go outside the box to create knives that have potential to broaden your customer base.

Don't just look at a show as an opportunity to sell the knives on your table but to more an opportunity promote yourself and your knives. Network as it's all about increasing contacts and putting you and your knives 'out there'.

Sound advice

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

Standing out making one of mans earliest and favorite tools is certainly a difficult endeavor

This is what we are really talking about

How to become visible and in demand in a sea of makers

In effect developing a brand.

Bob Kramer comes to mind

Is it luck ? or sublime skill

Maybe a little of both

Most people say that the harder they work the luckier they get

Great post.

In fact, Bob has an auction running right now - the first one in many, many months I think. And if someone really wants their eyes opened as to how much money a knife like that can command when made well and marketed even better, they should go take a look at the price that knife will command when the hammer comes down on Wednesday. Bring plenty of zeros - you're gonna need them.

 

[J. Doyle]

Some great posts here. Thank you Kevin and Joe.

Ken, you raise some good points too and I'll try to clarify some of my earlier statements tomorrow as it's getting late here.

Thanks for the discussion so far everyone.

 

[JParanee]

Great post.

In fact, Bob has an auction running right now - the first one in many, many months I think. And if someone really wants their eyes opened as to how much money a knife like that can command when made well and marketed even better, they should go take a look at the price that knife will command when the hammer comes down on Wednesday. Bring plenty of zeros - you're gonna need them.

Thanks Ken

 

[Kevin Jones]

Standing out making one of mans earliest and favorite tools is certainly a difficult endeavor

This is what we are really talking about

How to become visible and in demand in a sea of makers

In effect developing a brand.

Bob Kramer comes to mind

Is it luck ? or sublime skill

Maybe a little of both

Most people say that the harder they work the luckier they get

Isn't is funny how it seems to work out that way? :thumbup: