marquench & cryo?

gga357

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I hope it’s ok to use pieces of different treads to help understand my question a little better. I am wondering if retained austenite is an issue even if you marquench? (marquenching does not eliminate RA?). It could be if I understand the process correctly and Mf is say below freezing temp. The other part is the fine carbide structures that may increase toughness and reduce chipping. I am more interested in simple steels such as 1095, 1084, W2 52100 and 5160. So for some of these steels the RA may not be an issue but are there real gains from fine carbides? I want to be a well-informed collector and this is simply interesting to me.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-cryo-dry-ice-phase-of-the-heat-treat-process

First the definitions
Sub-zero treatment - CO2 , about -100 F
Cryogenic treatment - Liquid nitrogen , about - 300 F
Sub-zero reduces retained austenite .
Cryo reduces RA further and creates a fine "eta" carbide which ads to strengthening, hardening.
The steel MUST be tempered after sub-zero or cryo.
Typically high carbon , high alloy steels can benefit from these treatments. The stainless knife steels such as 154CM will benefit but even some lower carbon non-stainless ones like CPM 3V will benefit.
I tracked down the reference; R.F. Barton, "How Cryogenic Treatment Controls Wear". It states that the steels tested received conventional heat treatment, cold treatment, and cryogenic treatment. Rw for untreated 52100 was 25.2 and oops.... cryogenic treated 52100 had a Rw of 135. Meaning over a 500% increase in wear resistance. 5 steels were tested; 52100, D2, A2, M2, and O1. They all showed fairly dramatic results.
I don't know the final RHC for the tests.
Does cryo help with the following steels?
D2--Yes,yes
A2--yes
M2--yes
O1--maybe
W2--no
1095--no
1084--no
1070--no
5160--no
52100--no

Stan

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/639019-The-process-and-priciples-of-quenching

As promised I decided to start a new, hopefully educational, thread just dealing with the intricacies in complex mechanism involved in quenching steel. I have recommended the book “Quenching and Martempering” by ASM, but until those interested can get their own copy I will touch on some of what is in that book for starters.

Why do we quench? This may sound like a stupid question due to what we perceive as the obvious answer, but it is not that simple. Aside for other reason for cooling, I will assume we are hoping to harden the steel with this operation. Hardening the steel is a little subjective, as any state at all harder than the previous is technically hardened. So if we heat fully annealed steel and then cool it in air to form very fine pearlite the steel will indeed be harder than before. If we cool the same heated steel in a medium that will keep it from 500F-800F for extended periods, upper or lower bainite would in fact be harder that the previous condition. The same steel quenched to from martensite will be the hardest yet, but severity of quench below 500F could increase strain and result in even more levels of hardness. Then we need to discuss types of hardness, an air cooled piece of steel with subsequent cold work will exhibit high levels of strain hardening, which will resist bending, but not scratching and cutting. Mixed microstructures and carbide distributions will have great scratch hardness by may move significantly under penetrative hardness readings.

So before we can decide what quenching is even all about, we need to determine what hardening is all about for us. For simplicities sake, and since the highest levels of strength and abrasion resistance, in the absence of carbides, come from the most homogenous martensitic conditions, I will confine the scope of my discussion to achieving the most martensite formation, without undo brittleness, as possible. Do we all agree there?

Making martensite can actually be simplified down to not making anything else. With the starting point of austenite, cooling steel will want to form phase more stable than that at a give n temperature. The greatest challenge is pearlite, from 1,000F down to perhaps 900F pearlite will very rapidly form from the parent austenite, thus the most critical function of quenching simple steels is cooling as rapidly as possible through this range. The next phase that can form in the range from 900F to 500F with higher carbon steels would be the upper and lower morphologies of bainite. Some may choose lower bainite as their goal but to keep the topic manageable I will not get into austempering. All these other phases at least partially involve diffusive processes, the one we seek must avoid diffusion of the carbon in order to achieve the condition necessary for its formation. Thus if we want to make martensite the goal is to cool austenite at such a rate so as to outpace any diffusive activities that could rob us the carbon necessary for the strain of martensitic transformation.

With a steel such as 10XX series, there is not drag form alloying to slow down diffusion and we must cool entirely through the pearlite range in less than one second. This speed will obviously be heavily effected by the thickness of the steel, so the thicker or blade the faster the quench needs to be. Thus in choosing a quenchant our first reaction will be to go with the fastest cooling rate possible however this is where things begin to get complicated and such an oversimplified view will cause serious problems. As one approaches 500F and below the need for speed grows less critical and can take a back seat to another concern- over stressing the steel as it undergoes the incredible strain of the martensite transformation. Here continuous cooling is important in order to maintain that transformation but cooling at the same rate or faster, than that needed to avoid pearlite could result in distortion or cracking. So the ideal quenchant for most steels will cool very fast in the initial phases and then at a slower rate in the final 400 degrees. If this were not the case then brine would simply the best all around quenchant, and yet it is not.

The phases of a liquid quench: When hot steel in introduced into most liquids used for quenching there will be at least four distinct phases on its reaction to the steel being cooled to ambient- Vapor formation, Vapor blanketing, Vapor discharge, and final conductive cooling.

Vapor formation occurs as soon as the hot steel superheats the liquid to instantly exceed its vapor temperature, with water it will be 212F, with many oils it will be between 375F and 450F. This is almost unavoidable with almost any liquid with a vapor point below the temperature of the steel.

Vapor blanketing is what happens when the steel superheats enough liquid to create a constant and solid blanket of insulating gas which can all but stop the conductive cooling effects of the quenchant. Unfortunately this effect occurs in the same range when it is most critical to cool the steel in order to avoid pearlite. To add to this the vapor jacket will tend to perpetuate itself by its insulative effects on the steel. Thus not only is one of the most critical attributes of a good quenchant a very low vapor jacket, anything that can be done to destabilize or reduce that jacket is highly important in a successful quench.

Vapor discharge is the most violent and rapid cooling step of the process. This is when the vapor jacket collapses and the liquid begins to make direct contact with the hot steel, resulting in violent boiling and even some small gaseous explosions. Put a hot piece is steel into water and there will be an initial hiss from the vapor jacket formation, followed by a violent vibrating rumble as the water “bites the steel” in the vapor blanket collapse. This phase also self perpetuates as the boiling action increases convective forces of the quenchant as it self agitates. The more evenly this jacket dissipation occurs the better the chances of avoiding distortion and uneven hardening.

Direct conductive cooling can finally occur once the temperature has lowered enough to avoid heavy vapor formation and the liquid itself is making direct contact with the steel and carrying the heat away with conduction aided by convection of the heated liquid. Due to both of these factors working unhindered this has a natural tendency to be much faster that may be desired.

Many people have experiences problems with water quenching blade steels, let us examine how water, the oldest of quench mediums, behaves in these stages. First it forms vapor at a much lower temperature than oils and in voluminous amounts, so it will readily create a very insulative jacket of steam surrounding the steel, the vapor discharge will be most violent and very uneven, resulting in much greater distortion and varied rates of cooling. Once the vapor jacket is entirely gone the rate of cooling will be very fast to ambient, increasing the problems that were started in the previous step and often subjecting those uneven forces to enough stress to result in fracturing. Adding brine to water does not do much for us in the way of the actual conductivity of the quenchant, but what it does do is destabilize the vapor jacket to the point that the cooling can begin much sooner and much more evenly.

Oil can have greater or lesser degrees of vapor jacket problems depending on the vapor point of the oil. In general oils offer less vapor interference but a lower thermal extraction rate, due to limitations in conductivity and convection. Less viscous oils have a greater ability to convect and thus move heat ways from the steel and this is one of main reasons slightly heating a quench oil can increase its cooling ability. Perhaps the greatest advantage of oils is the gentle transition from the vapor jacket phase and the slower direct cooling phase, resulting in less distortion or cracking during martensite formation.

To be continued…
 
And some more........


When we harden steel we want to quench fast enough to get the full martensite structure. If we quench too fast we risk cracking.Looking at a typical TTT diagram the steel should be brought rapidly past the 'pearlite nose ' then more slowly through the martensite transformation. Commercial quenchants do just this. We can also marquench by quenching rapidly to just below the start of the martensite transformation .Then air cool from there.Third option is to do an "interrupted quench" where the steel is quenched rapidly to get the steel below the pearlite nose then removed from the quench. This may require a bit of experimentation to get the timing right. I have also done an iterrupted quench where the steel is water quenched for a few seconds then oil quenched to room temperature. For more complex shapes these procedures become more important.



Don, good to hear from you, long time no see. Mete covered it pretty well but I have a couple of minutes here to add my input. As previously discussed in this thread the idea behind hardening steel is simply not to make any soft stuff as it cools. The thing is that if you avoid any soft stuff above 900F, from 900F to 450F (assuming folks like carbon as much as I do), things will still be totally austenitic with continuous cooling. But that austenite will be very unstable and not want to hang around at lower temperatures. The hardened form of steel that we know so well, caused by martensite, only occurs when a certain temperature is reached, that temperature is known as Ms (martensite start) and it is unique to each steel chemistry since it is heavily affected by alloying. But for the sake of our conversation I will stick to just carbon in the effects on Ms, the higher the carbon content, the lower Ms. A steel with around .5% carbon will have an Ms perhaps around 550F while one with .9% carbon or more could be at 400F. This is due to the stabilizing effect that the carbon and other elements have upon the austenitic matrix, requiring more cooling to initiate the shearing strain necessary for the martensitic transformation.

As we also have discussed many times before, that strain is related to the massive expansion that takes place within the metal as it shifts from the compact stacking of FCC (face centered cubic) to the distorted BCT (body centered tetragonal) configuration. The most vivid example of this is a katana going into the quench straight and the edge martensite expanding so much that the blade abruptly curves from the expansion. With all of this movement potential much of our distortion occurs while martensite is being made. If all of this does not happen evenly and gets enough out of hand we then get the dreaded “ping”. Also in higher carbon steels there are certain conditions that occur which will results in much lower impact strength and true microfracturing. When I say microfracturing here I mean truly microscopic, as in within the grains, but less than desirable all the same. With all this stressing and straining going on you can begin to see why the less shocking we do to the steel from Ms to room temperature the better things could be for the steel. Water doesn’t offer any mercy in this range and that is one big reason we so often get cracking when we mess with water.

The martensitic transformation is not time dependant, it happens almost instantly once initiated but instead is entirely temperature driven, so if we stop the cooling at any point we stop making martensite. So while cooling too fast is overkill, cooling all the same really must be continuous.

If we cool fast enough to avoid pearlite, or any form of bainite, we now have accomplished all we needed in the fast cooling and it would be better at this point to slow down. A very good quenching oil will do this but it is possible to go even slower for the maximum gentleness, this falls within the techniques of marquenching or martempering. The idea of these techniques is to equalize the entire part being quenched at a temperature above Ms and then proceeding slowly and evenly through the martensite formation. This does a few things, first of all it is obvious how it can eliminate much of the distortion through equalization, but it will also eliminate large percentages of the stresses involved to typical quenching. However one of the biggest benefits is what is know as the autotempering effect, when as much as 40% of the martensite forms at temperatures capable of tempering it but remaining within that range long enough for some tempering effects to actually occur.

Marquenching, is properly done with low temp salt baths or specially designed martempering oils, and thus works best with deeper hardening steels, but the technique can be approximated by interrupting a normal quench just above Ms an allowing the steel to air cool. With salts you simply remove the equalized part and allow it to air cool but with a normal quench you have to get good at judging the cooling progress to interrupt correctly. If you interrupt too high you could form undesirable products, and if the edge should dip slightly below Ms before arresting the cooling action the heat from the spine could autotemper it at too high a range. On the other hand if the interrupt is too late you will kind of lose the whole point of what you are doing. Also I personally advise against getting creative with the cooling after the interrupt, it really should be continuous and not too slow, so a simple air cool is just fine. If you time things correctly you should have a light coating of oil on the blade with some light wisps of vapor coming off. The blade should not immediately look dry, nor should it flame. You should not be able to hold it with bare hands but you should be able to hold it for short times with lined leather gloves.

The leather gloves are good for the benefit of most interest to blade makers. You see since there will be a large percentage of austenite still in the blade, you can sight down it and see if there are any warps starting and if there are any all you have to do is easily push it straight with you gloved hands. How do you folks think I keep rapier blades straight? So if you do things correctly you can have a fully hardened blade, that has already automatically been through a snap temper (you could see perhaps 2 HRC points less as hardened, but that is not lost hardness it is autotempering effects), as nice and straight as you want to keep it, and with a significant gain in some impact toughness due to the low stress method of forming the martensite.

Be it from an interrupt, of from marquenching in salts, every blade I make is done this way so I must admit to being rather biased toward these techniques, but they have worked wonderfully for me for many years.

I was browsing through my Heat Treater's guide waiting for something to finish on my mill, and came across this table:

Mechanical Properties of 1095 Steel Heat Treated by Two Methods

I'd always sort of blazed past Kevin's line about "and with a significant gain in some impact toughness" figuring it was a relatively minor effect, but Sweet Baby Jesus, more than doubling impact energy is huge.

This is a dramatic benefit. I started googling martempering and impact energy, and it's odd how unnoticed this benefit is - with commentators saying stuff that boils down to "yes, the effect is there for high carbon steels, but who cares about high carbon steels anyhow."

I found a couple of other references that produce similar results:

Smith, W.F.: Structure and Properties of Engineering Alloys, 2nd
edn., pp. 78–79. McGraw-Hill, New York (1993)

Keough, J.R., Laird, W.J., Godding, A.D.: Austempering of steel.
In: ASM Metals Handbook, vol. 4, Heat Treating, p. 152. ASM
International, Materials Park, OH (1991)

For a given hardness, martempering gets you about half-way to the toughness benefits of austempering, and of course you can get a lot harder with martempering. No wonder Kevin martempers all his metal. And given the benefit, it seems crazy that anyone who is serious about the performance of their knives wouldn't martemper.

So what am I missing? Steel is all about trade-offs and this sure seems like a free, dramatic increase in toughness for a given hardness.


You got it Gabe. Most just don't fully understand the process and how to pull it off consistently, either with or without the appropriate equipment. I have done plenty of my own impact testing and as you mentioned you can see why I martemper everything. Beyond the impact gains you also have no reason to ever lose blades to distortion or cracking again. Some alloys make the process quite a bit more difficult than others, but I choose the alloys that I do much for being able to use these techniques. I have a piece of martempered L6 that I always keep in a drawer in my lab, it has a slight kink in it from absorbing the maximum 240 ft. lbs. that my Riehle impact machine can inflict, and I was worried I hurt my tester. With that in mind it may shed some light onto why I jsut don't find bainitic blades all that interesting.

Obviously I have been well aware of these effects for some time and I am glad you found the information on your own since my approach is never to hype up and overblow claims of special techniques for making the ultimate super blade, our business already has a belly full of that nonsense. But I am very happy with the performance gains from the methods I have incorporated over the years.
 
Basically does a marquench maximize HT or can cryo further improve a blade, in a practical sense? Mostly interested in 1095, 1084, W2, 5160, S7, L6 and 52100. I am here to learn anything I can about knives. I hope that one day I can take the info I learn and make some knives as time permits. With a 5 month old, 19 month old and a 9 year old it may be awhile.
Greg
 
Marquench/martemper was originally designed to minimize cracking and warping of complex shapes . The steel is quenched to just above the Ms ,equalized,then slowly cooled through the martensite transformation zone .There is some tempering going on as it's cooled thus the name martempering .That tempered martensite would stabilize some of the RA. Perhaps someone has experimented with cryo of martempered steel though it will have less effect than the Q&T steel.
 
Marquench/martemper was originally designed to minimize cracking and warping of complex shapes . The steel is quenched to just above the Ms ,equalized,then slowly cooled through the martensite transformation zone .There is some tempering going on as it's cooled thus the name martempering .That tempered martensite would stabilize some of the RA. Perhaps someone has experimented with cryo of martempered steel though it will have less effect than the Q&T steel.

Mete, could you explain what you mean by the word equalized in the above quote?
It would be greatly apre. because I really try to hang on to every thing you and Kevin say about HT---Jerry
 
For large and complex shapes the part is quenched and held at temperature until all of the part has come to the same temperature - equalized ! That wouldn't take long for a knife.
 
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