Marshall Wells Zenith knife, Not Real ( a put together knife).

sceva

sceva

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EDIT 1-31-2025: It appears that these are parts knives put together with old blades found in Germany and new frames & scales. See post # 11


I was looking at s Marshall Wells hardware Zenith folder on line. A 3 3/8" equal end made by Krusius. I know that NYKC made most of the Zenith knives for M. W. Hardware. ( out of business around 1958) The more I look at it the more I am skeptical about it, specially after reading that Jim Parker sold a lot of these as Found Old Stock at Krusius Bros. There is some speculation that they were put together using various old brands. I also read that they were put together with some celluoid handles that were bad for outgassing. This one has decent stag but it's possible that it's rehandled. The Marshall Wells Zenith logo looks smeary and badly stamped to me based on photos I have seen of different Zenith folders that have a nice sharp clear logo stamp. The marking are the logo, Krusius Solingen, and what looks like Marshall Wells M.I. Germany. I am assuming the M.I. Germany is Made In Germany instead of just Germany. Nice looking knife with some light staining / corrosion which looks suspiciously like what you see when cel. breaks down if you get it soon enough. There is a box (6 count) but it may not be "The Box"

Is it a real old Marshall Wells knife, or is it a nice Krusius with bogus stamps. They have a nice price on it so I don't think I'll be a buyer.


MW 5.jpg


MW 1.jpgMW 2.jpgMW 3.jpgs-l1600 (1).jpg
 
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I have only my superstition to guide me. I've bought nice knives cheap because I like them, and found out later they were worth a bit, but whenever I buy a knife because I think it's a steal, it turns out to be a fair price at best for something not as valuable as I thought.

So I'd be with you on not buying, and you seem to have plenty of grounds for doubt.
 
You are right to suspect all the things you mentioned!! The only thing I like is the box!! Can you show more details, if you have them?
Here is an American Zenith, obviously NYK!! to compare the marks for what that's worth!!
Zenith 4.jpgZenith 1.jpgZenith 2.jpgZenith 3.jpgObviously an NYK punch!Zenith HJ 1.jpgZenith HJ 2.jpgThe last two pics are of a German Zenith, and has acid etched tang marks!!
 
Big difference; The NYKC knife logo is what I would expect to see.

In searching some more I came across several of the same knife on Worthpoint except the Tang stamp was gazelle : I saw Celluoid, Buffalo horn, pearl, cracked ice.

The description is: "Hi I'm James Parker and I am offering some knives for auction. TN residents pay 9.25% state sales tax. Winning bidder pays $3.95 for USPS 1st Class Mail Shipping with Delivery Confirmation included in the Shipping price. Thanks. This knife for auction is special parts knife assembled around 2005. These knife parts were found in a closed knife factory surplus from the 1960s. The metal parts were assembled with new handles by the factory in Germany who made Bulldog knives as well as Fightn Rooster and Eye Brand. This knife is a Krusius Brothers Gazelle Cutlery Co. This knife is a 2 blade model and it is 3 3/8" closed. The blades are carbon tool steel; the master spear blade being tang stamped with the Gazelle trademark on the front and Krusius Solingen M.I. Germany on the rear."

From what I could find these were sold thru the SMKW in the 1990's as Warehouse Finds ( at least the blades) and you could choose from various old brands and it looks like Mr. Parker continued selling them on Ebay well into the 2000's but at least he was up front in calling them parts knives. The problem is that others get ahold of them later and either not knowing the real story or not caring try to sell them as vintage knives.

Now; it's a nice knife and the blades at least are Krisius but I just don't think it is worth the $100 being asked, I found another for sale with waterfall celluloid and they are wanting even more. Both are being sold as Genuine old Marshall Wells knives. MY inner voice is telling me they are not despite the carton with the one.
 
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sceva said:
I was looking at s Marshall Wells hardware Zenith folder on line. A 3 3/8" equal end made by Krusius. I know that NYKC made most of the Zenith knives for M. W. Hardware. ( out of business around 1958) The more I look at it the more I am skeptical about it, specially after reading that Jim Parker sold a lot of these as Found Old Stock at Krusius Bros. There is some speculation that they were put together using various old brands. I also read that they were put together with some celluoid handles that were bad for outgassing. This one has decent stag but it's possible that it's rehandled. The Marshall Wells Zenith logo looks smeary and badly stamped to me based on photos I have seen of different Zenith folders that have a nice sharp clear logo stamp. The marking are the logo, Krusius Solingen, and what looks like Marshall Wells M.I. Germany. I am assuming the M.I. Germany is Made In Germany instead of just Germany. Nice looking knife with some light staining / corrosion which looks suspiciously like what you see when cel. breaks down if you get it soon enough. There is a box (6 count) but it may not be "The Box"

Is it a real old Marshall Wells knife, or is it a nice Krusius with bogus stamps. They have a nice price on it so I don't think I'll be a buyer.


View attachment 2774772


View attachment 2774750
Click to expand...
To me the staining line (secondary blade) and corrosion (primary blade) on the blades in top photo, is what I would expect to find on a knife with outgassing covers, after the blades have been cleaned up some:
Heavy corrosion above the blade well, relatively clean inside the blade well.
Could the tang stamp have been "blurred"/"softened" by cleaning with a bench grinder's wire wheel? Seems like a logical possibility.

You are probably correct that it is a recover.
The (obvious?) outgassing damage makes "warehouse found NOS parts blades" and "factory assembled parts knife" ... unlikely ... in my humble opinion: Foremost; How would the exposure to the bad celluloid have happened to a box or crate of blades in a warehouse?

An understandable "pass" at that price.
 
afishhunter said:
You are probably correct that it is a recover.
The (obvious?) outgassing damage makes "warehouse found NOS parts blades" and "factory assembled parts knife" ... unlikely ... in my humble opinion: Foremost; How would the exposure to the bad celluloid have happened to a box or crate of blades in a warehouse?
Click to expand...

Parker owned Case at one time and a lot of the Case Classics were made in Germany, He also had the Bulldog brand as well as others and was very close friends with Frank Buster ( Fighting Rooster) who was also getting knives from Germany. What they all had is common was scales made from Celluloid that was notorious for outgassing fairly quickly and badly. Some like their Christmastree Cell was very prone to it. Outgassing can occur at any time, it is un-predictable and can start at any time. Even in a crate or warehouse. Once outgassing starts all you can do is get the scales off asap before it does too much damage. The outgassing will corrode any steel in close proximity which is why if you have any celluloid handled knives they should be stored separate from other knives.

At this point I don't know if the Zenith is a real Marshall Wells product or made up later from parts but I am sceptical enougt to give it a hard pass.

Here is a Frank Buster knife showing cell. deterioration and the resulting corrosion. Someone is actually trying to sell this one on the auction site and it's not a rarity to see them although they are not usually this bad. If you look at any knife handled in celluloid look carefully for cracking, crazing, tarnishing of the bolsters and lines of corrosion on the blades - often polished but look for lines of light pitting.

s-l1600.jpgs-l960 (1).jpgs-l960.jpg
 
Yep.
My thought was a box or crate of blades only would not be exposed to outgassing celluloid.
If they had assembled knives in the box/crate, that were used for parts, or cleaned up and recovered, then the outgassing damage would be expected.

I pretty much take a hard pass on anything celluloid. Cutlery ... fountain pens ... To me, it tain't worth the risk.
 
Is this where we're posting pictures of Marshall Wells Zeniths? ;)

I'm no expert, but I assume this one is an original oldie, because of the pick bone and swedged blades.

AlJashB.jpg

Sj9uUD9.jpg


After an epoxy patch job:

0FT73g2.jpg
 
I think this proves that the knife in the first post was a put together knife from Jim Parker. I found a bunch of listings in Worthpoint for the the same configuration. Stag, Marshall Wells M.I. Germany, Zenith tang stamp and both with and without the Krusius Solingen stamp. A was wrong in thinking that it had been rehandled though.

Mr. Parker was up front about these being put together parts knives ; unfortunately they keep getting listed as or passed off as the real vintage Marshall Wells knife at high prices either knowingly or unknowingly deal by later owners.

It just proves that we should do our homework.


a few Stag versions - there are others.

www.worthpoint.com

Zenith Marshall Wells STAG Senators Knife 1960s Genuine Stag Germany NR | #408897908

Hi I'm James Parker and I am offering some knives for auction. TN residents pay 9.25% state sales tax. Winning bidder pays $3.95 for USPS 1st Class Mail Shipping with Delivery Confirmation included in
www.worthpoint.com www.worthpoint.com
www.worthpoint.com

Marshall Wells Hardware Zenith Senators Knife 1960s Genuine Stag Germany NR | #286873840

Hi I'm James Parker and I am offering some knives for auction. TN residents pay 9.25% state sales tax. Winning bidder pays $3.95 for USPS 1st Class Mail Shipping with Delivery Confirmation included in
www.worthpoint.com www.worthpoint.com
www.worthpoint.com

Marshall Wells Hardware Zenith Senators Knife 1960s Genuine Stag Germany NR | #359621917

Hi I'm James Parker and I am offering some knives for auction. TN residents pay 9.25% state sales tax. Winning bidder pays $3.95 for USPS 1st Class Mail Shipping with Delivery Confirmation included in
www.worthpoint.com www.worthpoint.com
 
Jolipapa said:
Made in Germany was introduced by the british importers at the end of XiXth century. (most other imports had "Foreign Made".)
Germany reunited in 1990.
Before that date items were Made In West Germany, or (GDR for the eastern part), after the war Made in US Zone Germany from 1945 to 1952.
M.I. Germany is curious.
About Krusius : https://www.lakesidetrader.com/Education/Maker-Mark/Gebr.-Krusius-Gazelle-Solingen/index.php
Click to expand...

I have a number of knives from Germany that were made in the 1960s through 1980s that are all marked Germany, not West Germany. Brands include Puma, Henckels, Böker.
 
I may be wrong but I believe the M.I. Germany Knives were meant for the British market and marked according to the British Requirements in place then.
 
That is very nice. I do not doubt that it is a real one From M. W Hdw
 
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