Mass spectrometer?

flatgrinder

flatgrinder

Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
2,045
Hi,

Anyone have access to a mass spectrometer or similar device?

My father-in-law gave me some metal that he believes may be silver ... anyway to test it?

Thanks! :thumbup:
 
I'd look in your phone book for any fabrication shops - someplace build a lot of structures from metal. Or maybe call around to Inspection shops. Most of these places build things to customer specifications, which usually dictate what kind of metal is to be used in the fabrication. Some customers are anal retentive about their specs and require the fabricator to verify that the metal they're using is indeed to their specifications...so the fabricator's Quality Control department typically use what is called a PMI Gun - or Positive Material Identification Gun.

It's pretty much a hand-held xray machine that will read exactly what components are in the metal and their percentages. Say for example you shoot it at a peice of unknown steel and the readout says 0.95Fe, 0.095C, and trace Mn. Well this metal is most likely 1095 simple carbon steel. It's pretty cool! Will verify what metal it is in about 10 seconds.

Best bet would be to call up an Engineering company and ask them if they know any good 3rd party inspection companies. Then just call up the Inspection company and ask them what they price would be for a simple PMI test with no frills. Bring the metal in, zap it, read the display, and viola!

The company I work for has one and I've used it a few times to verify the chinese metal we received was what it was supposed to be (Bronze gear). The gun would be a nice thing to have on-hand for situations where you don't know what metal it is...but at $5k a pop I think it's a little out of most people's budgets.

Mass Spectronomy would probably do the job...but I think it's a destructive test - meaning you'll lose the metal they test. PMI is a non-destructive test (as long as you don't stick your testicles in front of the gun...)
 
Silver will cause fresh hydrogen peroxide to bubble

File into it to be sure that it is not only plated.


Take a piece into a goldsmiths/pawn shop that is offering to buy scrap gold.
They have a tester.

If they offer to buy it, it is real.
 
The Count beat me to it. Take it to a "We Buy Gold and Silver" place, or a jeweler. They will test it and make you an offer. Don't sell it to them (as their offer will be quite low).

If it is silver and you have a good amount of it, send me a PM or email, and I will give you the contact info for a few refiners that pay based on the actual content value.

Most over the counter gold/silver buyers pay about one third to one half the value. ( They aren't ripping you off,they have to make money to stay in business).

I the old days when a silversmith picked up a sheet of silvery metal and didn't know if it was silver of nickel silver, the test was to hold one side and heat the metal about four inches away with the torch. If you could hold it more than one second, it wasn't silver. Silver is a superb heat conductor, and the whole sheet heats up fast.
 
Thanks for all the replies! :thumbup:

I forgot to mention that my father-in-law found it in an abandoned house that had burned to the ground, it was in a glass jar and had melted. He guessed that it could be old silver coins? :confused:

We bandsawed the block into pieces and melted them in my Evenheat kiln, set a little above the melting point of silver, and poured the molten metal into moulds to make a dozen or so nuggets. Some of it didn't melt and we just trashed it.

We did take the metal to one of those "We Buy Gold and Silver" places, they took a sample and melted it in the back room came back and offered something for the whole bunch ... then the owner walked up and said "No, it must be palladium, we'll give you "x" amount" (which was about a third less).

We then drove all around LA, stopping by Jewelers, pawn shops, "We Buy Gold" places and no one would give us a straight answer ... I even contacted UCLA and they said that the metallurgy department had closed. :eek: (Kinda disappointing to find this out, the head of the department said that they were now more interested in composites).

At this point, we just curious as all heck as to what the mystery metal can be?
 
jdn181 said:
I'd look in your phone book for any fabrication shops - someplace build a lot of structures from metal. Or maybe call around to Inspection shops. Most of these places build things to customer specifications, which usually dictate what kind of metal is to be used in the fabrication. Some customers are anal retentive about their specs and require the fabricator to verify that the metal they're using is indeed to their specifications...so the fabricator's Quality Control department typically use what is called a PMI Gun - or Positive Material Identification Gun.

It's pretty much a hand-held xray machine that will read exactly what components are in the metal and their percentages. Say for example you shoot it at a peice of unknown steel and the readout says 0.95Fe, 0.095C, and trace Mn. Well this metal is most likely 1095 simple carbon steel. It's pretty cool! Will verify what metal it is in about 10 seconds.

Best bet would be to call up an Engineering company and ask them if they know any good 3rd party inspection companies. Then just call up the Inspection company and ask them what they price would be for a simple PMI test with no frills. Bring the metal in, zap it, read the display, and viola!

The company I work for has one and I've used it a few times to verify the chinese metal we received was what it was supposed to be (Bronze gear). The gun would be a nice thing to have on-hand for situations where you don't know what metal it is...but at $5k a pop I think it's a little out of most people's budgets.

Mass Spectronomy would probably do the job...but I think it's a destructive test - meaning you'll lose the metal they test. PMI is a non-destructive test (as long as you don't stick your testicles in front of the gun...)
Click to expand...

Hey jdn181, any chance you would be willing to test a sample for us? :)
 
I can pretty much assure you that they did not melt it to test it. They use various acids to test silver, but the results can be somewhat ambiguous. If you melted it at any temperature near the melting point of silver alloys (1450F to 1750F)....it isn't palladium. Palladium melts about 1000F higher than pure silver. It takes special ovens and crucibles to melt palladium (2850F) and platinum (3200F).

Are you dealing with grams, ounces, or pounds of this metal? With silver running about $24/Toz it takes a good bit to make a refining run worthwhile. Batch refining usually costs about $100 per batch. Silver accountability is usually 90% of assay. Whatever it is they pay you for, be it gold,silver, platinum, or palladium.

Out of curiosity,what did the gold buyer offer you for it?
 
bladsmth said:
I can pretty much assure you that they did not melt it to test it. They use various acids to test silver, but the results can be somewhat ambiguous. If you melted it at any temperature near the melting point of silver alloys (1450F to 1750F)....it isn't palladium. Palladium melts about 1000F higher than pure silver. It takes special ovens and crucibles to melt palladium (2850F) and platinum (3200F).

Are you dealing with grams, ounces, or pounds of this metal? With silver running about $24/Toz it takes a good bit to make a refining run worthwhile. Batch refining usually costs about $100 per batch. Silver accountability is usually 90% of assay. Whatever it is they pay you for, be it gold,silver, platinum, or palladium.

Out of curiosity,what did the gold buyer offer you for it?
Click to expand...

Hi Stacy,

I'm not sure if the guy in the back room knew what he was doing, we could see him through a window and he basically melted it in a stainless bowl with a blow torch and swirled it around. I can't remember exactly what the guy offered as it was about 3 months ago and my memory's kinda fiuzzy, but he said something like $3 an ounce?? :confused:

We have about 12 oz of the mystery metal. My father in law gave me 4 oz (each nugget is an ounce) just for fun.

I need to find me a PMI gun! :)
 
scrapyards use them, at work it's called a Niton gun, they are somewhat accurate if they are programmed right, they are usually good for the heavier elements but they are not quantitative instruments, usually if the program curves are good they can suggest probable alloys but they are not always right

-Page
 
Pawn shops usually have testing equipment. If you know of one run by some decent fellows it might be the easiest way to find out.

-I see someone already suggested this, sorry for the repeat:foot:
 
Just wanted to say "Thank you" for all the advice and wanted to give you guys a quick update.

I took a sample to a scrapyard yesterday and they tested it with a handheld device. It was almost pure zinc.

I think a bunch of pennies melted in the jar. Did some searching online ... and since '82 all pennies are zinc with a copper plating. Well, it's a bit disappointing it wasn't silver, but the mystery is solved. :thumbup:
 
A metallurgist can tell just by looking at it !!! We can also listen to it as it's bent -zinc will form deformation twinns which form at the speed of sound so they can be heard !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top