maybe I'm blind, question about sr-101

Last Visible Canary

Last Visible Canary

actively parsing hurf durf
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I had asked questions about this, and I recall cobalt saying something to the effect of sr-101 being a chemically altered version of 52100.


so I ask the question here to hopefully clarify it:

Is sr-101 52100 that is purchased as standard 52100 and then heat treated in house,

or is it a custom steel that is ordered from a steel manifacturer for swamp rat?

if it is a custom steel, is it a proprietary blend to swamp rat? [edit - /busse]


same question also posed for sr77 ("modified" s7).....
 
Maybe it has a bit o vanadium? Is there a chemical analysis of SR-101 floating around in cyberspace?
 
I think this is a great question as well. But, unfortunately, Jerry seems to like having a “mystique” about his products and way of doing things.

SR-101 is called "Modified" 52100.
Modified means changed.
You can and do change steel by heat treating it - the physical properties change even if the composition stays the same.
But, in the world of steel, if a particular steel has a different heat treatment process and/or hardness level, it may have different properties, but it would still be the same steel and maintain its AISI or SAE designation. So, 52100 would still be 52100 regardless of how heat treated and what hardness level.

By my definition of "modified" - as “I” feel it should relate to the steel industry, I would feel the chemical composition should need to be "slightly different" to be called "modified". But, ... then you would “have” to call it something else since it would not technically be the same composition of the original steel anymore.

But, I tend to believe SR-101 is 52100 that is heat-treated by Busse.

I tend to believe that Jerry just “Chooses” to call his 52100 "SR-101" to differentiate it and try to create a “Mystique”.

Same for SR-77. I assume it is just S7 that Jerry “Chooses” to call SR-77.

Cold Steel pretty much did this with “Carbon V”. Most of the Germans are very vague and indiscript about what steel they are providing. But, it seems to me the Germans were and still are having problems with that as many people are just generally associating all German steels as lesser steels these days - since it is hard to differentiate most German steels - You never really know what you are getting. I think Jerry might be avoiding this potential pot-hole by at least closely associating his steels to a certain designation.

...... Although, I am not sure at all what INFI is associated with (???). I don't know of any steel that is similar in composition to how I understand INFI to be composed.


I don't know for sure, but I am pretty confident Jerry has never made public the exact composition of: INFI, SR-101 or SR-77.
…. And I doubt he ever will.

So, while I do have a few sources that indicate the composition of INFI, I am not 100% sure of the accuracy (????).

I can appreciate as a business owner wanting this “Mystique”.
In the knife industry (as well as some others) protecting and maintaining certain secrets about what makes your product “special” helps prevent someone duplicating what you do. Say… in China for MUCH cheaper.
Also, if you can establish a certain “mystique” about your product, people sometimes go crazy and eat it up…. Jerry has done well with this.

For my part, I find “smoke and mirrors” frustrating – as I like to know things. But, I do appreciate a certain need for secrecy.

It seems to me that there are a sufficient number of variables in a heat treatment process to just be able to say: “We have a special / proprietary / etc. - heat treatment process for our steel.”
But, apparently, Jerry would like for us to possibly assume the composition of the steel “might” be “special” or otherwise different.

Rest assured that INFI is not to be confused with "INOX".

.
 
DWRW said:
I don't know for sure, but I am pretty confident Jerry has never made public the exact composition of: INFI, SR-101 or SR-77.
…. And I doubt he ever will.
Click to expand...

I beleive that jerry has verified spectral analysis of the steels composition as being accurate on the boards... I have to go to work at the moment, but when I get home I'll go try to hunt it down.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500364&highlight=composition

opinion 1 = just an in house heat treat

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512761

opinion 2 (cobalt) = they are a different composition. the next question if that is the case is "is it a custom steel ordered by swamp rat, and is it proprietary?"
Click to expand...


I think the key term above is: "Opinion".

.... although Cobalt made his statement as if making a statement of fact (?????).

I openly admit that I am making "assumptions".
I am not convinced there is a ligitimate option other than to assume, guess, speculate, etc..

Cobalt is very knowledgable about Busse and their products, but based on what I "do" know and have read, I would probably need more support for his statement for me to assume his statement is accurate or correct.

How and Where did he get this info?

I have been pretty active on Swamp Rat - Rat Chat long before Swamp Rat started here on Bladeforums. I have never seen evidence to support that SR-101 actually has a different composition from 52100.

I read the Busse forum on occassion, but not regularly. I LOVE INFI and wish it were reasonably priced (IMO), but since it is not (IMO), I try not to let myself get too interested to help avoid impulse purchases that I can't afford. I am open to the possibility that after a few glasses of "Blue", Jerry might have posted something about specific steel compositions (or similar).

.....But, I seriously doubt it.

I would think if there were ever a legitimate post at any given time from a reputable source (Jerry, Jennifer or Eric), then this information would have been referred to, quoted, etc. on many occassions.

I am not saying Cobalt is wrong. He made his statement as a "Fact" type statement. Then he followed his first statement with a second statement saying: "They were steels that were tested but for one reason or another not used. Both SR101 (mod 52100) and SR77(mod S7) are better overall performance than their parent steels. "

The second statement made by Cobalt indicates he had further insite to the story. (??????)

I just would need more info about the source of info before I assume the info to be accurate.

*** Why don't you contact Cobalt and ask more directly about the source of his info. How does he know this? Where did he get his info? etc.

..... Then report back here. :thumbup: ;)

Maybe Cobalt got Jerry drunk at a Blade show or something (????).
But, I would have to wonder how valid information from a drunk Jerry at a blade show is?


As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have seen a post for the composition of INFI. Multiple posts actually exist, but they "may" have come from one original post and the original one may be "Suspect". I have never seen Jerry post the composition of INFI. - and I have "Searched" via Bladeforums search tool and Google. And I have never seen Jerry or Eric or similar post the composition of SR-101 other than indicating "Modified 52100".

Same with SR-77. I have never seen Jerry or Dan post the actual composition of SR-77 or anything other than indicating "Modified S7".


Here is another question for you (... and I am speculating on my thought process...):

Since I have never seen "Modified 52100" ANYWHERE else.
If a steel manufacturer were to make a "custom " run of "Modified 52100", I would believe there would be a premium on the price of the steel.

Considering the original concept of Swamp Rat (prior to Scrap Yard) was to offer a high bang for the buck.

How much more would a custom run/batch of steel cost? - It seems to me that ANY custom batch would be for a premium.

I believe I read a thread once where somebody had contacted Crucible about a batch run of steel - minimum order was 45,000 pounds!!! I am pretty sure Jerry hasn't made that many pounds of knives with all Busse, Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard knives combined! But, I really don't know what a minimum tonnage of custom steel really is.

How would using a "Custom" steel not used anywhere else be cost effective? (* Although, I am sure would could argue "cost effective". ;) - Swamp Rat might be a bargain compared to INFI, but I don't exactly consider Swamp Rat cheap.

Maybe "IF" you can buy "JUST" a ton or two of custom steel and be pretty close in price (?????). But, that still requires buying enough steel for about 1,000 - 3,000 knives considering waste (????)

I assumed that most steel was produced in 10s - 100s of tons per batch (????).

I am not sure how Jerry purchases INFI (????), but notice INFI is VERY expensive. (??????)


Anyway.....

"IF" you figure it out, I would love to know! .... And know How you know.

.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
I beleive that jerry has verified spectral analysis of the steels composition as being accurate on the boards... I have to go to work at the moment, but when I get home I'll go try to hunt it down.
Click to expand...


I am not sure exactly what you mean, but I would be interested in hearing more with documentation.
 
sigh... I wish was more organized, I could have saved all this information in a "history" file.


post 10, 27, 29, and 38 "E T" posts comments about infi's composition.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...id=108579&highlight=busse+radioactive+isotope

he only has 7 posts, so I have no idea who he is or where his radioactive isotope spectral analysis was done. he apperently still lurks here.

in his last post he states

"In another post, Mr. Busse agreed that my analysis was correct, with the addition of .11% nitrogen and .5% carbon, which the radioactive isotope spectral analysis can't detect. So, the complete formula is:

V .36%
Cr 8.25%
Fe 87.79%
Co .95%
Ni .74%
Mo 1.3%
C .5%
N .11%

These numbers should not be assumed to be exactly right, the cobalt at .95% is probably supposed to be 1.0%, but they should be close."

where is this post where jerry agree's with him? I have no idea. possibly lost somewhere in the dredges of the busse archives, but I don't even see the link to it in the archives section anymore (if it was even ever there... I may just be going crazy). in order to find that, some combination of usable search terms would have to be found, if its even on bladeforums.


as to where cobalt got his information, possibly from jerry himself. I do not know :(


now I have to go look for what tonnage the d2 stock pile busse had was to try to get a perspective on steel weights....
 
guh... I actually had to use yahoo to find this one.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=258583&highlight=sr101+over

JenniferBusse said:
Recently while clearing out his original shop he decided to inventory his stores of bar stock. As it turns out, he had amassed quite a bit of his favorite tool steels including many tons of A-2 and D-2 tool steel. He put over 41,000 pounds of D-2 tools steel on the “For Sale” boards at over 90% off of the regular selling price! One of the deterring factors to using D-2 is its high price. Normally a 1/8” thick x 1 ½” wide x 18” long bar of precision ground D-2 Tool Steel costs $40.34 per bar. You can only get two 9” OAL knives out of a single bar. That means your raw steel cost per blade is over $20.00! That is over 3 times more expensive than using some of the other grades of cutlery steel!
Click to expand...

the bold portion is my doing. so, jerry had 41,000 pounds of left over d2 stock. and that was from his custom knife making days, not the heavy work flow production days we have now.

I really have no idea about custom making a steel. if a factory is making 52100 actively, it may be easier and less expensive for them to add microconsituents then it is to make a completely new steel blend ???


steel stock is much, much, much, much heavier then the finished knives. you have to take into account the left over stock that is left during the knife cutout process, as well as the material that is ground off of the blade portion during the beveling process. bar stock is really heavy. trying to lug a set of truck springs into my garrage for stock removal was a serious work out.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
sigh... I wish was more organized, I could have saved all this information in a "history" file.


post 10, 27, 29, and 38 "E T" posts comments about infi's composition.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...id=108579&highlight=busse+radioactive+isotope

he only has 7 posts, so I have no idea who he is or where his radioactive isotope spectral analysis was done. he apperently still lurks here.

in his last post he states

"In another post, Mr. Busse agreed that my analysis was correct, with the addition of .11% nitrogen and .5% carbon, which the radioactive isotope spectral analysis can't detect. So, the complete formula is:

V .36%
Cr 8.25%
Fe 87.79%
Co .95%
Ni .74%
Mo 1.3%
C .5%
N .11%

These numbers should not be assumed to be exactly right, the cobalt at .95% is probably supposed to be 1.0%, but they should be close."

where is this post where jerry agree's with him? I have no idea. possibly lost somewhere in the dredges of the busse archives, but I don't even see the link to it in the archives section anymore (if it was even ever there... I may just be going crazy). in order to find that, some combination of usable search terms would have to be found, if its even on bladeforums.


as to where cobalt got his information, possibly from jerry himself. I do not know :(


now I have to go look for what tonnage the d2 stock pile busse had was to try to get a perspective on steel weights....
Click to expand...


Well.... your "Theoretical" chemical composition of INFI is pretty much the same as mine (.... that I initially mentioned I questioned the legitimacy of the info....), but it appears the info I have came from this very same source - This: "radioactive isotope spectral analysis" that was apparently done around 1999.

I got my info froma Cliff Stamp Post. You will notice he gathered his info from this "ET" guy with 7 whole posts.... :rolleyes:


*** I am not really trying to "dispute" the composition of INFI as it has been posted. I don't have the info, tools or knowledge to dispute the info.
But, I find it pretty interesting that when I did a search for: "radioactive isotope spectral analysis" (I put quotes around it all), Google returned VERY little info about this process.:

- 3 of the 4 Google search links to info about "radioactive isotope spectral analysis" were referring to discussions about INFI.... :rolleyes:

- 7 of the 8 Yahoo search links to info about "radioactive isotope spectral analysis" were referring to discussions about INFI - some in other languages..... :rolleyes:

So what is: "radioactive isotope spectral analysis"?
Where is the legitimacy in this process?
Who the heck is "ET"?
Why do we give credit to someone and their statements when we don't know who this guy is. He just pops up (7 times on bladeforums) and says he ran some scientific sounding test and here is what he found. Why would hundreds of posts be based on this info and this person?

Then "Mystery Man" "ET" says: "In another post, Mr. Busse agreed that my analysis was correct"...

- Um.... Where is this confirmation post from Mr. Busse? I can't seem to find it......



Did nobody else question the legitimacy of these tests? and this person?

There are hundreds of threads discussing and explaining INFI, but much of the information is based on this questionable information!!!

I need more than that. "I" have to at least question if we have any relevant info so far.

In the end, I guess the proof is in the pudding. INFI has been pretty well documented to perform well.

But, still smoke and mirrors.

.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
guh... I actually had to use yahoo to find this one.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=258583&highlight=sr101+over



the bold portion is my doing. so, jerry had 41,000 pounds of left over d2 stock. and that was from his custom knife making days, not the heavy work flow production days we have now.

I really have no idea about custom making a steel. if a factory is making 52100 actively, it may be easier and less expensive for them to add microconsituents then it is to make a completely new steel blend ???


steel stock is much, much, much, much heavier then the finished knives. you have to take into account the left over stock that is left during the knife cutout process, as well as the material that is ground off of the blade portion during the beveling process. bar stock is really heavy. trying to lug a set of truck springs into my garrage for stock removal was a serious work out.
Click to expand...


Mmmmhmmmm... yes, that is an AMAZING amount of D2. I would bet they still have a bunch. I would like more Bog Dogs and Dog Skinners please! ;)

Like I said, I really don't know about batch quantity orders. I do realize a LOT of the steel ends up being wasted. I was even speculating at 50% waste or so. But, even then, there is NO WAY they have produced 15 tons of D2 knives from 30 tons worth of D2.

In reference to SR-101: let's assume from all of the Rat knives made, the average weight was 16 ounces - 1 pound. - Truthfully, the Battle Rat blade by itself weighs less than a pound.... But, for simple math.

Nobody has posted or stated any real numbers about production. Eric, Jerry, Dan all VERY tight lipped about production numbers as much as production procedure. But, if 50% were wasted (sounds a little high, but feasible), then they would have to produce 40,000 knives to use 40 tons of steel.

I don't know how big a factor these military orders are. Again, nobody seems to know. They seem to be growing in importance (???). But, it seems/feels like these batch releases per design are in the 100 - 300 range or so lately (????). Even with 20 different designs or so over the last 5-6 years, that would still only be about 2,000 - 6,000 knives = about 2-6 tons of steel including waste for the entire history of Swamp Rat knives. Even if we double the numbers, we are a LONG way from reaching 40 tons of steel.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see how they could use 40 tons of steel in any "reasonable" period of time unless it was intended to last for 10 - 30 years worth of production. But, that seems like a HUGE purchase commitment. (?????)

All of this is highly speculative and not really that relavent to what SR-101 and SR-77 are really made of.

For all we know, they can have a small batch of 500 pounds of custom blend steel made for close to the same cost per pound. (??????)

.......?
 
DWRW said:
So what is: "radioactive isotope spectral analysis"?
Where is the legitimacy in this process?
Who the heck is "ET"?
Why do we give credit to someone and their statements when we don't know who this guy is.
Click to expand...

http://www.lla.de/en/index.php/content/view/23/51/

the "radioactive isotope" portion of that description may have been a misleading personal adition to "Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy".

with all internet information, unless it can be tracked to a live individual with traceable records is to be taken on a "grain of salt until proven otherwise" basis.

I think that if I search hard enough for it, I might be able to find a direct qoute from jerry saying there is nitrogen in the infi mix, but beyond that I now doubt that I could find a direct qoute from him on bladeforums regarding any other portion of infi's composition.

it's possible that some of this was done or said on the home forum. I'll see if my account still works there....
 
DWRW said:
Like I said, I really don't know about batch quantity orders. I do realize a LOT of the steel ends up being wasted. I was even speculating at 50% waste or so. But, even then, there is NO WAY they have produced 15 tons of D2 knives from 30 tons worth of D2.

________________________________snip____________________________
I don't know how big a factor these military orders are. Again, nobody seems to know. They seem to be growing in importance (???). But, it seems/feels like these batch releases per design are in the 100 - 300 range or so lately (????). Even with 20 different designs or so over the last 5-6 years, that would still only be about 2,000 - 6,000 knives = about 2-6 tons of steel including waste for the entire history of Swamp Rat knives. Even if we double the numbers, we are a LONG way from reaching 40 tons of steel.
Click to expand...

this is the only way I can sum up steel usage for any of these companies, becuase its the only hard evidence of steel plate size and knife usage per blank thats been posted (that I know of). so for this, it will be directed at busse rather then swamp rat:

valleytinworks said:
yess there is 17.6 pounds of infi in this art ......
Click to expand...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4968013&postcount=7

attachment.php


so, each plate weighs 8lb's 12oz {17.6/2 = 8.8; 8+ (.8x16[oz])}

shbm's weigh in at 660g (23.2808 oz - 1lb 7oz) as per he who shall not be named:

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/busse_bm.html


there are 6 shbm's whose finished beveled weight = 1lb 7oz, totalling 8lb's 10oz of steel hearts taken out, not accounting for the loss of stock material during the beveling and drilling process.

sigh... finding the weight of a striaght handled mean street is not an easy process.

lets just say that it weighs 5oz per blank, thats another pound taken from the overall plate stock.

so at 9lbs 10oz, assuming that the extra steel taken away from the beveling process would get it up to 10lbs, your looking at an 18lb 12oz plate, with 10lb's of actual knife space used, (theoretically) your looking at around 47% wasted stock.

so ya, your estimation seems about right :)



SO. how many knives would it take to get up to 40,000lb's?

each plate = 18lbs 12oz (300oz)
9 knives per plate (in this configuration)

40,000lb x 16oz = 640,000oz total steel used
640,000oz/300oz = 2,133 plates used
2,133 x 9 knives per plate = 19,200 knives


over a 10 year span, that would require 1,920 knives to have been made per year. I could see that being doable... thats only 160 knives per month, and with military and consumer orders, I don't think thats that hard of a number to reach.


so... I don't know about swamp rat. I could see busse putting out 160 knives per month, but I don't know about swamp rat. if they have a storage space, they could store 30,000lb's of d2 and only use 10,000 of it at any given time. and they may be working on an extremely limited staff and time availability schedule, meaning that most of their stock is in storage anyways.



all of wich is pure speculation, and like you said has nothing to do with what sr101 or s77 is made of :D

I guess it works back to the original post by showing that 40,000lbs of steel (for a custom steel order minimum) is usable if your company can either store it, or can put out 160+ knives a month.

and thats still assuming that the custom steel (if sr101 is a custom steel) is pure custom, an entirely new mix: as apposed to 52100 with a few added materials during the normal 52100 mixing process.
 
now that I think about it, the handle slabs probably even out the steel thats taken off of the bevel for the most part... oh well.

LOL, I'll just say that the knives used for testing on each run make up for my error of weight calculation :D:D:D:D


also the mess up pile, like the one jerry posted a long while ago... so much infi sitting in a throwaway bin :(

attachment.php
 
huh... I see reciprene c in that image. that may be a collection of all the companies waste blades, not just infi ones... UGH, and a totally finished mean street... I wonder what happened to that one...


[edit] also, this is a good place for loooooooooong arduous searching of the old busse forums - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/f-713.html

it has posts dating back to 2000, and it has all of the threads up til that point. using ctrl+f, you can search the thread titles with relative speed.. it is still very arduous. one of the only ways to get at the older threads though.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
http://www.lla.de/en/index.php/content/view/23/51/

the "radioactive isotope" portion of that description may have been a misleading personal adition to "Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy".

with all internet information, unless it can be tracked to a live individual with traceable records is to be taken on a "grain of salt until proven otherwise" basis.

I think that if I search hard enough for it, I might be able to find a direct qoute from jerry saying there is nitrogen in the infi mix, but beyond that I now doubt that I could find a direct qoute from him on bladeforums regarding any other portion of infi's composition.

it's possible that some of this was done or said on the home forum. I'll see if my account still works there....
Click to expand...



The posting of INFI steel composition may be dead-on accurate information.
Unfortunately, in light of the questions about the info's source and how provided, I agree that is should probably be "taken with a grain of salt".
It is very possibley there are MANY people who "MIGHT" be mislead about INFI's composition for these last 7-8 years - But, who knows?????...

.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
this is the only way I can sum up steel usage for any of these companies, becuase its the only hard evidence of steel plate size and knife usage per blank thats been posted (that I know of). so for this, it will be directed at busse rather then swamp rat:



http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4968013&postcount=7

attachment.php


so, each plate weighs 8lb's 12oz {17.6/2 = 8.8; 8+ (.8x16[oz])}

shbm's weigh in at 660g (23.2808 oz - 1lb 7oz) as per he who shall not be named:

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/busse_bm.html


there are 6 shbm's whose finished beveled weight = 1lb 7oz, totalling 8lb's 10oz of steel hearts taken out, not accounting for the loss of stock material during the beveling and drilling process.

sigh... finding the weight of a striaght handled mean street is not an easy process.

lets just say that it weighs 5oz per blank, thats another pound taken from the overall plate stock.

so at 9lbs 10oz, assuming that the extra steel taken away from the beveling process would get it up to 10lbs, your looking at an 18lb 12oz plate, with 10lb's of actual knife space used, (theoretically) your looking at around 47% wasted stock.

so ya, your estimation seems about right :)



SO. how many knives would it take to get up to 40,000lb's?

each plate = 18lbs 12oz (300oz)
9 knives per plate (in this configuration)

40,000lb x 16oz = 640,000oz total steel used
640,000oz/300oz = 2,133 plates used
2,133 x 9 knives per plate = 19,200 knives


over a 10 year span, that would require 1,920 knives to have been made per year. I could see that being doable... thats only 160 knives per month, and with military and consumer orders, I don't think thats that hard of a number to reach.


so... I don't know about swamp rat. I could see busse putting out 160 knives per month, but I don't know about swamp rat. if they have a storage space, they could store 30,000lb's of d2 and only use 10,000 of it at any given time. and they may be working on an extremely limited staff and time availability schedule, meaning that most of their stock is in storage anyways.



all of wich is pure speculation, and like you said has nothing to do with what sr101 or s77 is made of :D

I guess it works back to the original post by showing that 40,000lbs of steel (for a custom steel order minimum) is usable if your company can either store it, or can put out 160+ knives a month.

and thats still assuming that the custom steel (if sr101 is a custom steel) is pure custom, an entirely new mix: as apposed to 52100 with a few added materials during the normal 52100 mixing process.
Click to expand...

I will just go along with your math.
But, a purchase of 10 years worth of steel is still a huge commitment.

.
 
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