Meatcutters, beef cutting, need help

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xdidimox

Joined
May 19, 2021
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So im not new to knives. Ive been in the meat industry for 10+ years and i still struggle to get a good edge on my knife.

I freehand stone a 5 degree angle on it.
Which turns out beautifully

Then i get my sharpening steel. Somedays ill have a great day with it, other days ill struggle

I put my microbevel on at 15 degrees.
And i put the last swipe of the steel on at 5 degrees.

can anyyyybody please help me how to maintain a razor edge when it comes to cutting meat?

Can you tell me what angles you sharpen to maintain your super sharp edges?
 
Hi there and welcome to BladeForums.

A ten degree inclusive edge is quite thin, so the steel your using would need to be pretty hard to combat edge deformation, even with a 15 degree microbevel.

What kind of knife/steel are you using?
 
5 degrees per side sounds like essentially a zero bevel where the cutting edge is the same as the side of the entire knife body.

If that's what you are doing, I don't think your steel is putting much of a micro bevel on the edge. Steels (honing steels) can't remove much metal, if any. They mostly deform the steel (pushing it around) in order to realign edges. If you want a micro bevel, use something that's abrasive. A diamond impregnated steel would certainly remove metal.

I question if an edge that acute (5 dps) would hold up very well. But I have not done my own testing so I really don't know.

I would think an edge at approximately 12 to 15 degrees per side, at about 320 grit would be perfect for meat cutting. Something like a Fine India (Norton) or a Coarse DMT (diamond) should produce a real meat slicing edge. At 12 to 15 dps I would expect it to be durable as well.

There are some guys here who really know meat cutting edges. David Martin is one of them.

Paging David Martin to the red telephone. Sharpening hotline calling!

Brian.
 
A 5° per side edge is much too thin to be stable or strong. It can be quite sharp, but would likely keep rolling over or deforming (denting, flattening) with any hard contact or lateral pressure against the edge.

Resetting the edge to maybe 25° - 30° inclusive (12.5° - 15° per side) would strengthen the edge geometry and still keep it plenty sharp for most any task. With typical stainless kitchen cutlery, going much below 20° - 25° inclusive (10° - 12.5° per side) would likely leave the edge too delicate to be durable.

For the situation referenced in the OP, I'd just keep microbevelling with a stone at around 12.5° - 15° per side, and abandon any sharpening at anything lower in angle. With continued microbevelling, the edge will retreat into thicker steel behind the original thin edge, and it'll get stronger and more stable as it does so. Setting the edge to 12.5° per side and then including a 15° per side microbevel can work quite well, IF you're still wanting to use a microbevel at all.

Even straight razors usually aren't more acute than about 7.5° per side (15° inclusive). And they're really only useful for shaving, being otherwise prone to edge damage doing much else.
 
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bgentry said:
5 degrees per side sounds like essentially a zero bevel where the cutting edge is the same as the side of the entire knife body.

If that's what you are doing, I don't think your steel is putting much of a micro bevel on the edge. Steels (honing steels) can't remove much metal, if any. They mostly deform the steel (pushing it around) in order to realign edges. If you want a micro bevel, use something that's abrasive. A diamond impregnated steel would certainly remove metal.

I question if an edge that acute (5 dps) would hold up very well. But I have not done my own testing so I really don't know.

I would think an edge at approximately 12 to 15 degrees per side, at about 320 grit would be perfect for meat cutting. Something like a Fine India (Norton) or a Coarse DMT (diamond) should produce a real meat slicing edge. At 12 to 15 dps I would expect it to be durable as well.

There are some guys here who really know meat cutting edges. David Martin is one of them.

Paging David Martin to the red telephone. Sharpening hotline calling!

Brian.
Click to expand...

HeavyHanded said:
David Martin David Martin knows an awful lot about sharpening for meatcutters.
Click to expand...

You guys are correct in that David had a lot of knowledge in this field. Unfortunately he has passed recently. We lost a good man.
 
MolokaiRider said:
You guys are correct in that David had a lot of knowledge in this field. Unfortunately he has passed recently. We lost a good man.
Click to expand...
I also hadn't heard of this until now. But I'd wondered if he was OK, as I hadn't seen any posts from him recently. Would've expected to see him commenting on this topic in particular - it was right in the heart of his wheelhouse. DM was a very influential presence here, to myself and many others.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Resetting the edge to maybe 25° - 30° inclusive (12.5° - 15° per side) would strengthen the edge geometry and still keep it plenty sharp for most any task. With typical stainless kitchen cutlery, going much below 20° - 25° inclusive (10° - 12.5° per side) would likely leave the edge too delicate to be durable.
Click to expand...
I usually go for 30° for my kitchen knives. Plenty sharp and the edge will last a lot longer.
 
Pretty sure David used India stone to finish, deburr on a fine DMT, smooth steel during your shift as needed.

He mentioned more than once 120-180 grit and steel it. Really the key is to use the smooth steel until the edge draws out and then take it back to a stone.

Start at 30degrees inclusive and steel a couple degrees higher. My own use for offhand cutting in the kitchen is to use about 120-220 at 26 degrees and then microbevel on a waterstone or smooth steel. Then repeat the burnishing process on coffeecup, smooth steel etc as many times as I can get away with.

If you start with a very refined edge it limits what thecsmooth steel can do - once there are no grind troughs for the burnished steel to compress down, they will draw out into a burr.


As a result, these edges tendcto start out good and get progressively better for a bunch of touchups, failing at about the same curve as they improved. You can tell pretty quick when you've peaked but the edge will still be pretty good. When the smooth steel does nothing or produces an easily visible burr is time for a stone again.

This old thread shows the details:

A very quick and close look at 'steeling'

The recent discussion re steeling with Stitchawl spurred me to take another look at this practice. Until now my experience with this activity has been largely limited to kitchen knives using a groved steel and a "smooth" one that had become discolored and somewhat abrasive. I've gotten poor...
bladeforums.com bladeforums.com
 
I'm very sad to hear of the passing of David Martin.

Years ago he and I didn't seem to see eye to eye on sharpening at all. We never had any real disagreements. I just read what he wrote and disagreed with "the old man in the forum". But years went by and I started to agree with him more and more. By the time I wrote the Seven Secrets, we seemed to agree on a lot of the basics. In case it's not clear: David was correct all along. It just took me a while to catch up.

The more I've learned about toothy edges, the more I understand why the Norton trihone system is tried and true. It gets the job done in the real world. David seemed to love the 11" version of that system and talked about it many times here.

I will miss David and his wisdom.

Brian.
 
It has also been my experience that lower grit edges are a great benefit for meat.

I usually just use the coarse side of a Diafold DMT on pretty much every steel type ranging from S110v to 1095.

I do find a polished edge works better on wood though, and will spend time refining a blade up through the grits to achieve a nice smooth and even bevel.
 
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