Medford heat treatment

Mister_Punchy

Mister_Punchy

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I read that Medford is heat treating his Magnacut steel to 58 HRC, which is not optimal according to the specs from its inventor. Do you guys happen to have any info concerning the heat treatment on the other steels used by Medford, especially for S35VN and S45VN. Couldn't find anything.
 
The general consensus in discussions I've come across is that Greg has the mindset that softer=tougher=better. I have also heard that after a large amount of backlash after he announced running the Magnacut so soft he has started running it harder. Unfortunately I can't provide any more info as I've never had much interest in Medford knives.
 
Ilikesharpstuff said:
The general consensus in discussions I've come across is that Greg has the mindset that softer=tougher=better. I have also heard that after a large amount of backlash after he announced running the Magnacut so soft he has started running it harder. Unfortunately I can't provide any more info as I've never had much interest in Medford knives.
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Which of course begs the question, why not just run his Magnacut at 50 HRC? Or 40? or 30? Surely that would be much tougher than 58 HRC. You know what, I'm convinced. A non-hardened knife, like your average butter knife is the ultimate steel. After all when's the last time you saw a butter knife chip, even when cutting on glass or stone? In all seriousness, toughness is a big consideration when I'm considering a knife in a certain steel, and a parameter I value arguably more than pure wear resistance. But a steel like Magnacut is designed to be hardened at the low to mid 60's to capitalize on all it's great qualities. If you want to heat treat a knife to 58 HRC, why not make it in a steel that finds its optimal all around performance in that range of hardness?
 
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I agree with you guys heartily but I was more in search of info concerning Medford heat treatment on his other steels :)
 
Mister_Punchy said:
I agree with you guys heartily but I was more in search of info concerning Medford heat treatment on his other steels :)
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I searched google for "Medford (insert steel) hardness" and was able to find several retailer listings for knives in S35VN and S45VN that listed the hardness for both at 58-60Rc. Some provided that range, some just said 58Rc.
 
He's talked about it in some of his more recent YouTube vids, he's running it harder now. I can't remember what HRC he said.
 
My advice would be to absolutely not care… I don’t use my knives at all - I’m not being a smart a$$ but I carry a knife every day and find I almost never have to use it. I have a Chris Reeve Large Inkosi from 2018 that I sharpened on day 1 - it’s 5 years later and it’s soft but still hair popping sharp. For my use case, hardness is irrelevant - now I have more Medford than CRK but I couldn’t possibly care less about the steel or the hardness.

If S35 gives you 300 cuts and S45 gives you 359 cuts and Magnacut gives you 348 cuts with more toughness and corrosion resistance, does it matter? If you cut stuff that has nails and staples, Magnacut is for you, if you don’t, S35 and 45 are more than fine…. If you need 799 cuts, get S90 but remember that it will chip easier and take at least twice as long to sharpen.

Steel matters if you cut a lot or work around salt water or in high humidity, it absolutely doesn’t matter at all if you don’t. That is Greg’s whole point - how many people who drone in and on about hardness, edge retention, heat treat and metallurgy actually use their knives enough to care? I bet less than half.
 
DavidV said:
That is Greg’s whole point - how many people who drone in and on about hardness, edge retention, heat treat and metallurgy actually use their knives enough to care?
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If he don't care then why should I care about buying a Medford knife?
We buy expensive knives because we want the pinnacle of technology. We want the knife maker to REALLY care about this, to push the boundaries.
Otherwise a cheap stainless steel knife should be enough and this forum would not exist.
If Greg really think that nobody is really using his knives and he can go with suboptimal heat treatment to save on grinding and manufacturing...then I'll go somewhere else to buy my knives.
 
I bought one in S35V and it must have been 61HRC. It was kinda hard to sharpen using diamonds.
 
I know this thread is old, but the topic still comes up often. There must be a reason why makers don’t typically run S35, 20cv, etc over 60rc. Magnacut is kind of the exception, but is still run a couple points lower than “optimal”, usually.
People would hit a tiny staple or something with their big “tough” $500 knife and chip the hell out of the edge, and then think “Medford makes weak knives”…or Hinderer.. or ZT, or Microtech.
The only brand that really pushes the hardness is Spyderco and maybe a couple custom/mid tech brands that emphasize slicing over toughness
 
tony281sc2 said:
I know this thread is old, but the topic still comes up often. There must be a reason why makers don’t typically run S35, 20cv, etc over 60rc. Magnacut is kind of the exception, but is still run a couple points lower than “optimal”, usually.
People would hit a tiny staple or something with their big “tough” $500 knife and chip the hell out of the edge, and then think “Medford makes weak knives”…or Hinderer.. or ZT, or Microtech.
The only brand that really pushes the hardness is Spyderco and maybe a couple custom/mid tech brands that emphasize slicing over toughness
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I think cost of machining and finishing possibly, and so many knives today focus more on art and/or fidget factor that they don't necessarily expect people to use them hard.

Medford knives have never appealed to me, and knowing heat treatment is suboptimal is another reason to look away.

To be honest, toughness isn't very important to me in a folder. I'm not felling sequoias, I'm not prying car doors open, or stabbing cans of paint.

It also comes down to choosing the right tool for the job. If I'm going to be cutting cardboard with staples with a folder , I would choose something like my Demko AD 20.5 in 3V, and/or be very aware of where the staples are.

Medford (generally makes their blades super thick, and while this makes the blade resistant to breaking while prying, that same action causes heavy stress on the pivot, which will become damaged instead.

If I need to pry, I'll use the cheap little pry bar on my keychain, or a flathead screwdriver.

Another thought, with a blade as thick as say a praetorian, I would think it would be more resistant to damage just based on how obtuse the edge is, and therefore could warrant running a higher hardness.
 
My S35vn onbelay was very soft. On my KME I had to be careful not to remove too much metal even with 1500 grit stone.
 
I wonder why knife manufacturers don't use Bohler S290. You can harden it up to 70HRc and it has very high wear resistance and edge stability. We are using it for some cutting tools in our company.

Back to topic; for the sake of conversation let's say we have two identical knives – one hardened to 58HRc and the other to 61HRc. It would be interesting to see, how this difference of 3HRc would affect edge retention in real life. I couldn't find anything on the internet.
I suspect large knife manufacturers are doing such tests how far they can go with some steels and also taking into account the thickness behind the edge and ''buyers factor'' like ''harder is better''.

Razor said:
I bought one in S35V and it must have been 61HRC. It was kinda hard to sharpen using diamonds.
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Hmm; sounds strange.
When testing my cheap diamond files I had no problem grinding HSS steel blanks I got from our tool shop (65-66HRc ; 150mm x 20mm x 5mm).
We used them long ago to make some special cutting tools before we switched to PCB and G30 carbide hardness.
 
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T TheOne45

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/

I don't know if you've seen this yet, however Larrin Thomas is the guy who seems to have done the most experimentation regarding what you're talking about, and recorded the information and results for everyone to see. He has graphs on there that show how the edge retention and toughness change on a steel when you go higher or softer on the HRC. Once you have two data points you can draw a line between them on your graph and the edge retention or toughness will generally follow that line. You'll have to see the Toughness vs. HRC, and Total cuts vc. HRC graphs to see what I'm talking about.
 
Thanks for the link LimpCroissant.
Funny thing is I found this article a while ago but somehow forgot about those graphs.
I was just looking at the graph 'toughness/edge retention/hardness' - for example; for Magnacut the gain in edge retention rating from 61HRc to 65HRc was about 1 point.
4HRc difference in hardness is a big jump but I have no idea, what would mean 1 point difference in edge retention when cutting something. How much cuts would that be in Catra test? How much more rope cuts?
Catra test and rope cutting is not something you can consider 'ultimate edge testing' but it can give you a hint how much you gain.
If you have two same knives with different hardness but made of same steel and sharpened to same angle and the same grit and have same thickness behind the edge .... a cutting test would give you a hint, how much you gain if the knife is harder.
 
tony281sc2 said:
I know this thread is old, but the topic still comes up often. There must be a reason why makers don’t typically run S35, 20cv, etc over 60rc. Magnacut is kind of the exception, but is still run a couple points lower than “optimal”, usually.
People would hit a tiny staple or something with their big “tough” $500 knife and chip the hell out of the edge, and then think “Medford makes weak knives”…or Hinderer.. or ZT, or Microtech.
The only brand that really pushes the hardness is Spyderco and maybe a couple custom/mid tech brands that emphasize slicing over toughness
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Valid questions I agree, my own "ass"umptions:

1 - cost to heat treat to a higher HRC

2 - emphasis on toughness over edge retention

Number 2 bothers me though, because in the case of some, the geometry of the blades are such that they are already so thick that chipping or rolling and edge isn't a likely concern to have.

As for Medford, my personal experience with their S35VN, D2 and 3V hasn't evidenced "soft" steel; and I do know that he revised his HRC for MagnaCut.
 
BTTLBRN said:
Valid questions I agree, my own "ass"umptions:

1 - cost to heat treat to a higher HRC

2 - emphasis on toughness over edge retention

Number 2 bothers me .
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Number 1 bothers me more if that really is the case. It’s one thing if you’re talking about a $100 knife in a super steel, but at $400+ that would be lousy if the reason is to save a few $$$ for maintenance on the machines.
Maybe it’s difficult to guarantee a certain hardness if they are doing them in batches.
If they’re trying to hit 60 for example, maybe there are some (of the exact same knife) that are in the low 59s, while another one could test at 61???

And honestly number 2 doesn’t bother me, if that’s the reason it’s slightly lower, especially if the blade stock is .165 or .185”, that knife won’t be a slicer no matter what the hardness is
 
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Delgadonine said:
Read Greg's views on metallurgy and use a Medford, then talk about it. Greg makes a strong case for D2, 3V and CPMS35...

The sum of his thesis:

Cost+Environment+Use=Your knife purchase.
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Greg Medford is not an engineer or metallurgist… so “his views” on metallurgy are really without merit. His knives have been known to have issues time after time after time… May be best to leave the science to professionals.
 
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