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Mei help
- Thread starter SBranson
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According to my Yumoto book, last character appears to be "Tsukuru"- make, so the preceding would likely be a name, especially as this is the usual side for a mei. Third character from the bottom seems to be "Kuni"- province or territory. "Kunihiro" is a possibility- hard to tell. best guess is for last 3 characters Kunihiro Tsukuru- lit. made by Kunihiro.
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NihontoEd
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Stuart,
Just checked in and saw this. Are you sure this is a Japanese sword ? The inscription doesn't seem to read as anything coherent in a Japanese context. It is obviously new from the condition of the tang and my only guess is that it reads in Chinese, of which I am of no help.
Of course, it is entirely possible that I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first or last time
Do you have photos of the sword itself ?
Just checked in and saw this. Are you sure this is a Japanese sword ? The inscription doesn't seem to read as anything coherent in a Japanese context. It is obviously new from the condition of the tang and my only guess is that it reads in Chinese, of which I am of no help.
Of course, it is entirely possible that I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first or last time
Do you have photos of the sword itself ?
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
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- 12,554
On one of the other forums, Moderator Craig Bird posted this:
"Horikawa Kunihiro was one of the lynchpins that define the dawn of the Shinto-jidai(1600 to 1800), he is of monumental stature. Because of his fame, he was "faked" in his own lifetime, there are many gimei extant.
Simply put, Kunihiro was already an established swordsmith when he went to study with Umetada Myoju in Kyoto and remained there until his death in 1613. His works bare a very Soshu-den flavor and were some of the finest ever made. Kunihiro, Kotetsu and Kiyomaro are argueably the finest smiths to have worked since 1600."
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
"Horikawa Kunihiro was one of the lynchpins that define the dawn of the Shinto-jidai(1600 to 1800), he is of monumental stature. Because of his fame, he was "faked" in his own lifetime, there are many gimei extant.
Simply put, Kunihiro was already an established swordsmith when he went to study with Umetada Myoju in Kyoto and remained there until his death in 1613. His works bare a very Soshu-den flavor and were some of the finest ever made. Kunihiro, Kotetsu and Kiyomaro are argueably the finest smiths to have worked since 1600."
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
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- 2,912
Well, long story short...
I was first approached about this a while ago with the possibility of requenching it. It has a poor heat treat and resultant hamon and there was a thought to "rescue" it even at the expense of it's already lowly status. After some research, it was determined that this is indeed a Japanese blade but I looked back over the email communication and I guess some of the initial comments didn't sink in. A few quotes:
"but we actually did a bit of research into its origins, and it turns out that the blade is pretty much a complete write-off"
"the jihada is fairly tight overall and shows good control, the final opinion is that this blade was probably made almost entirely for "practice" (like a doodle/sketch; maybe by a junior apprentice)"
"well-carved signature was a bit misleading and contributed to the confusion, but it now appears that that was just for practice as well." (oops.. missed that)
And after I received it:
"To make a very long story short, I managed to track down the source/person who could tell me how this particular blade got from Japan to the US. There's no external indication as to the construction that I could see in this blade, which I now believe is almost 99% certain to be a blade made from med/low grade tamahagane by a student/apprentice solely for the sake of learning/practicing very particular skills. In musical terms, kind of like an etude rather than a concerto."
So... it was actually given to me to possibly break down and reuse or to requench if I so desired...
Now, I never get to see nihonto.. My sensei has brought a couple family treasures in to look at but other than that.. so when I got it, and being that it was actually mine, I was like a kid with candy and got all excited.
I have since looked at it more closely and there are many things wrong with it. There is some poor shaping( possibly poorly repolished after damage), bad kissaki, uneven shinogi ji side to side and one side loses proper proportions. The hamon is pretty rotten, as if someone was very timid in their approach and quenched too soon or clayed it way too heavily. It's quite a heavy blade so likely left too thick prequench as if concerned about breakage.
There are some nice aspects to it that make it seem much nicer than most Chinese katanas I've seen though..
Thanks for the responses though, I suspect that the mei is not going to produce any actual information. I am subscribing to the idea that this is a practice piece, and may have been a practice piece for a polisher as well. It's got some polishing problems but there is certainly a fair bit of effort put into it regardless, with the burnished shinogi ji and some hadori polishing (suguha, to obscure the actual disaster of the hamon) and a very clear jihada.
The nakago is odd though as it has a strong curvature that mimics some old Kamakura tachi but nothing else matches the era... again supporting the "doodle" comment.
As it is considered a "junk blade" (though still not without a sense of presence which had me reluctant to do anything to it) I will redo the heat treat, and fix the overall sugata and likely mount it for a personal piece. It will be very fun to experience working with tamahagane in the final stages. As it still may be kobuse construction, I won't cut it unless it cracks.
When I get to it, I will take pictures before and after..
I was first approached about this a while ago with the possibility of requenching it. It has a poor heat treat and resultant hamon and there was a thought to "rescue" it even at the expense of it's already lowly status. After some research, it was determined that this is indeed a Japanese blade but I looked back over the email communication and I guess some of the initial comments didn't sink in. A few quotes:
"but we actually did a bit of research into its origins, and it turns out that the blade is pretty much a complete write-off"
"the jihada is fairly tight overall and shows good control, the final opinion is that this blade was probably made almost entirely for "practice" (like a doodle/sketch; maybe by a junior apprentice)"
"well-carved signature was a bit misleading and contributed to the confusion, but it now appears that that was just for practice as well." (oops.. missed that)
And after I received it:
"To make a very long story short, I managed to track down the source/person who could tell me how this particular blade got from Japan to the US. There's no external indication as to the construction that I could see in this blade, which I now believe is almost 99% certain to be a blade made from med/low grade tamahagane by a student/apprentice solely for the sake of learning/practicing very particular skills. In musical terms, kind of like an etude rather than a concerto."
So... it was actually given to me to possibly break down and reuse or to requench if I so desired...
Now, I never get to see nihonto.. My sensei has brought a couple family treasures in to look at but other than that.. so when I got it, and being that it was actually mine, I was like a kid with candy and got all excited.
I have since looked at it more closely and there are many things wrong with it. There is some poor shaping( possibly poorly repolished after damage), bad kissaki, uneven shinogi ji side to side and one side loses proper proportions. The hamon is pretty rotten, as if someone was very timid in their approach and quenched too soon or clayed it way too heavily. It's quite a heavy blade so likely left too thick prequench as if concerned about breakage.
There are some nice aspects to it that make it seem much nicer than most Chinese katanas I've seen though..
Thanks for the responses though, I suspect that the mei is not going to produce any actual information. I am subscribing to the idea that this is a practice piece, and may have been a practice piece for a polisher as well. It's got some polishing problems but there is certainly a fair bit of effort put into it regardless, with the burnished shinogi ji and some hadori polishing (suguha, to obscure the actual disaster of the hamon) and a very clear jihada.
The nakago is odd though as it has a strong curvature that mimics some old Kamakura tachi but nothing else matches the era... again supporting the "doodle" comment.
As it is considered a "junk blade" (though still not without a sense of presence which had me reluctant to do anything to it) I will redo the heat treat, and fix the overall sugata and likely mount it for a personal piece. It will be very fun to experience working with tamahagane in the final stages. As it still may be kobuse construction, I won't cut it unless it cracks.
When I get to it, I will take pictures before and after..
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Will you cut WITH it, after you do a lot of work, but before you do a full blown polish on it?
I'd like to know how it handles for you, having handled your iaito.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Well at 1017g or almost 2lbs 4oz bare blade, I imagine it would cut if I just dropped it on something.
I'm not much of a cutter as tameshigiri is not looked upon favourably in the ZNIR so even though some guys do it we're not "supposed" to.
(this is our organization: www.iaido.ca)
so... that said, not sure I could offer much information in that department but I'll give'er a go..
I'm not much of a cutter as tameshigiri is not looked upon favourably in the ZNIR so even though some guys do it we're not "supposed" to.
(this is our organization: www.iaido.ca)
so... that said, not sure I could offer much information in that department but I'll give'er a go..
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Always seems a shame to me never to use a sword for cutting. Cutting is the test of whether a sword performs or not, and allow a smith to grow by seeing the results of his work. A sword is a work of art but it must cut well. A Ferrari might be a work of art but if the engine won't turn it's junk.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Cutting is an integral part of iai. If I was part of an organization that did not cut, I would leave it. One of the reasons that the Japanese iaido ryu don't cut is the lack of affordable shinken in Japan....we don't have that issue in North America, thankfully.
Stuart....if you want to do "real" iaiheiho.....you need to work towards being a decent cutter consistently.....nothing gives the "true" feedback on your kihaku like cutting.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Well... that's debatable. If you are speaking of iaijutsu, then sure but Iaido then not so.. The ZNIR actually forbids it and here is why...
You can read more about it here but I will quote the first part. I'm sure some will disagree but I understand their reasoning...
"Tameshigiri
Tameshigiri is the action of using a sword to cut objects (tamesu in Japanese means "try out", while giri means "cut").
Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" one¹s spirit/heart (kokoro). Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.
There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.
Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.
Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.
Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldn¹t step over it, or touch the blade with one¹s hands.)
--- Esaka Sensei "
I'm not sure how much of this attitude is just a post ww2 reaction as from the moment of occupation, swords were all considered weapons and ordered destroyed, including all the masterpieces and antiquities and the smithies closed. Some frantic and successfully lobbying got the important ones reclassified as art and cultural objects and they were spared. Further efforts allowed Japanese smiths to start producing swords again.
Now the ZNIR was founded in 1948 which, if memory serves, was a year after the reclassification so that is likely the source of the politics of their stance on tameshigiri.
And as far as...
Well, in Canada, there are few options for instruction in anything (except for around here there is a ton of aikido for some reason). The quality of the iaido instruction with the inclusion and influence of Itoh Takeji sensei, is surely the best in Canada and likely better than most of the US.
I would rather honour their wishes than relegate my study to the travesties of Iaido published on youtube...
I've seen youtube videos of supposedly good cutters who are not good at Iaido.. It's a common theme in the western adaptation of martial arts and the modern need for instant gratification.
Personally I think tameshigiri is an appropriate practice but one that should be earned after the honing of technique and the development of proper spirit..
You can read more about it here but I will quote the first part. I'm sure some will disagree but I understand their reasoning...
"Tameshigiri
Tameshigiri is the action of using a sword to cut objects (tamesu in Japanese means "try out", while giri means "cut").
Iaido is the only martial art where one practices with a sword in order to "polish" one¹s spirit/heart (kokoro). Tameshigiri is forbidden by the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei, the only specialist iaido organization in Japan.
There are several reasons for not doing tameshigiri.
Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.
Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree.
Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldn¹t step over it, or touch the blade with one¹s hands.)
--- Esaka Sensei "
I'm not sure how much of this attitude is just a post ww2 reaction as from the moment of occupation, swords were all considered weapons and ordered destroyed, including all the masterpieces and antiquities and the smithies closed. Some frantic and successfully lobbying got the important ones reclassified as art and cultural objects and they were spared. Further efforts allowed Japanese smiths to start producing swords again.
Now the ZNIR was founded in 1948 which, if memory serves, was a year after the reclassification so that is likely the source of the politics of their stance on tameshigiri.
And as far as...
Well, in Canada, there are few options for instruction in anything (except for around here there is a ton of aikido for some reason). The quality of the iaido instruction with the inclusion and influence of Itoh Takeji sensei, is surely the best in Canada and likely better than most of the US.
I would rather honour their wishes than relegate my study to the travesties of Iaido published on youtube...
I've seen youtube videos of supposedly good cutters who are not good at Iaido.. It's a common theme in the western adaptation of martial arts and the modern need for instant gratification.
Personally I think tameshigiri is an appropriate practice but one that should be earned after the honing of technique and the development of proper spirit..
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Yeah, but you know they're all sneaking in some tameshigiri now and then when nobody's lookin'!
Joking aside, I would have to say that kung fu sword practice is also conducted with polishing one's spirit or heart as a goal.
Joking aside, I would have to say that kung fu sword practice is also conducted with polishing one's spirit or heart as a goal.
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I'm sure some are.. ha.. In fact it's sometimes discussed at class but even amongst ourselves we lower our voices as if someone's going to tell on us... One of our sensei is from the Itto ryu tradition so he does tameshigiri and often discusses it in refining our technique or explaining proper form but he's a special case.
Now if someone were dumb enough to mention it at a seminar in the presence of the visiting instructors from Japan, they would be expelled from the organization. It's taken very seriously..
Now if someone were dumb enough to mention it at a seminar in the presence of the visiting instructors from Japan, they would be expelled from the organization. It's taken very seriously..
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Our ryu have an immutable difference of training philosophy then.
FWIW, representatives of my ryu from the United States have performed iaiheiho demonstration for the Emperor of Japan at the Budokan in Kyoto during a DNBK(Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, my rank in this organization is shodan, even though I am nidan) enbu, and were informed by the highest Japanese level practitioners that we made our Japanese counterparts look bad by comparison.
My ryu also trains in Ono Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu under the auspices of Sasamori Takemi, Soke 17th headmaster of Ono Ha Itto Ryu.
"Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.
Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree."
This is foundationally retarded, and I mean that in the true sense of the word. That is my opinion and experience.....talk to Yoshindo Yoshihara if you ever get the chance.
"HE RECEIVED HIS OFFICIAL SWORD MAKING LICENSE IN 1965. AT THE NATIONAL SWORD MAKING CONTEST, HE PROCEEDED TO WIN; FIVE THIRD PRIZES, TWO SECOND PRIZES, AND "7" SEVEN FIRST PRIZES! IN 1982, HE WAS AWARDED THE PRESTIGIOUS TITLE OF " MUKANSA " (ABOVE AND BEYOND ENTERING SWORD MAKING COMPETITIONS)! ONE OF HIS BLADES UNDERWENT A CUTTING TEST, DONE BY "TERUTAKA KAWABATA" A FAMOUS SWORD TESTER. IT SUCCESSFULLY CUT A FINELY MADE "IRON KABUTO" ( HELMET ) OVER 2" - 5.0 cm. DEEP. THIS IS TRULY AMAZING! HE MADE AND PRESENTED KING CARL GUSTAF XVI OF SWEDEN WITH A TANTO. THE KING (A SWORD ENTHUSIAST) VISITED YOSHINDO'S FORGE AND WORKSHOP, AS WELL AS THE N.B.T.H.K.. YOSHINDO CO-AUTHORED THE BOOK "THE CRAFT OF THE JAPANESE SWORD" WITH LEON KAPP. HE WAS MADE AN HONORARY CITIZEN OF "DALLAS TEXAS", WHERE HE HELD A PRIVATE EXHIBITION, IN 1980. HE EXHIBITED FOR THE BOSTON METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART, IN 1981. THE MARINE UNIVERSITY OF CALF. IN 1982. THE SAN FRANCISCO AIRPORT GALLERY IN 1983. IN 1989 HE EXHIBITED A TANTO THAT WAS MADE FROM A METEORITE, AT THE TAKASHIMAYA DEPARTMENT STORE. YOSHINDO POSSESSES, SUPERB SKILL, A REMARKABLY ARTISTIC EYE, AND VAST KNOWLEDGE OF METALLURGY AND SCIENCE.
YOSHINDO'S SENSEI (TEACHER) WAS HIS GRAND FATHER "KUNIIE ( KATSUYOSHI ) YOSHIHARA", WHO WAS BORN IN "IWARAKI PREFECTURE, IN 1894, HE MOVED TO TOKYO AS A YOUNG MAN AND BECAME THE STUDENT OF "SHIGETSUGU KASAMA", AND "AKIHIDE (HIKOSABORO) KUNIHARA", HE WAS CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THERE FINEST STUDENTS. HIS WORKS ARE MAINLY DONE IN THE KOTO STYLE. DURING WW II, HE TRAINED SWORD SMITHS FOR THE ARMY, A POSITION OF GREAT HONOR. HE PASSED AWAY IN SHOWA 45, AT AGE 76.
THE FATHER OF YOSHINDO IS, "KUNIIE MASAHIRO" A WELL KNOWN SWORD MAKER. HIS OLDER BROTHER IS THE FAMOUS "KUNIIE SHOJI" WHO CARRIES HIS GRAND FATHERS NAME. HE IS AN EXTREMELY ACCOMPLISHED SWORD SMITH. HE ALSO HOLDS THE COVETED TITLE OF " MUKANSA" (ABOVE ENTERING ANY CONTEST). HE HAS MADE MAJOR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE ART OF SWORD MAKING. I HAVE SEEN A BLADE BY HIM, DONE IN THE KAMAKURA BIZEN STYLE. THE HADA (BLADE GRAIN STRUCTURE), AND CHOJI HAMON (TEMPERING), ARE MARVELOUS."
The sword is in fact a tool and a weapon. It is not to be used lightly by a dedicated practitioner in foolish pursuits like cutting fruit or water bottles or pool noodles, but when used with respect for the art, and in accordance with accepted practices....it is a fundamental part of training.....you are not only testing the sword, you are most certainly testing yourself.
My Sensei, when he was alive, said it was better to train, even in an art that we had universal disdain for, than to not train at all.
Here is a link to the lineage of my art that goes back to the 1600's:
http://www.knbk.org/history-and-genealogy-of-tosa-iai
I'll leave it at that.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
FWIW, representatives of my ryu from the United States have performed iaiheiho demonstration for the Emperor of Japan at the Budokan in Kyoto during a DNBK(Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, my rank in this organization is shodan, even though I am nidan) enbu, and were informed by the highest Japanese level practitioners that we made our Japanese counterparts look bad by comparison.
My ryu also trains in Ono Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu under the auspices of Sasamori Takemi, Soke 17th headmaster of Ono Ha Itto Ryu.
"Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties.
Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree."
This is foundationally retarded, and I mean that in the true sense of the word. That is my opinion and experience.....talk to Yoshindo Yoshihara if you ever get the chance.
"HE RECEIVED HIS OFFICIAL SWORD MAKING LICENSE IN 1965. AT THE NATIONAL SWORD MAKING CONTEST, HE PROCEEDED TO WIN; FIVE THIRD PRIZES, TWO SECOND PRIZES, AND "7" SEVEN FIRST PRIZES! IN 1982, HE WAS AWARDED THE PRESTIGIOUS TITLE OF " MUKANSA " (ABOVE AND BEYOND ENTERING SWORD MAKING COMPETITIONS)! ONE OF HIS BLADES UNDERWENT A CUTTING TEST, DONE BY "TERUTAKA KAWABATA" A FAMOUS SWORD TESTER. IT SUCCESSFULLY CUT A FINELY MADE "IRON KABUTO" ( HELMET ) OVER 2" - 5.0 cm. DEEP. THIS IS TRULY AMAZING! HE MADE AND PRESENTED KING CARL GUSTAF XVI OF SWEDEN WITH A TANTO. THE KING (A SWORD ENTHUSIAST) VISITED YOSHINDO'S FORGE AND WORKSHOP, AS WELL AS THE N.B.T.H.K.. YOSHINDO CO-AUTHORED THE BOOK "THE CRAFT OF THE JAPANESE SWORD" WITH LEON KAPP. HE WAS MADE AN HONORARY CITIZEN OF "DALLAS TEXAS", WHERE HE HELD A PRIVATE EXHIBITION, IN 1980. HE EXHIBITED FOR THE BOSTON METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART, IN 1981. THE MARINE UNIVERSITY OF CALF. IN 1982. THE SAN FRANCISCO AIRPORT GALLERY IN 1983. IN 1989 HE EXHIBITED A TANTO THAT WAS MADE FROM A METEORITE, AT THE TAKASHIMAYA DEPARTMENT STORE. YOSHINDO POSSESSES, SUPERB SKILL, A REMARKABLY ARTISTIC EYE, AND VAST KNOWLEDGE OF METALLURGY AND SCIENCE.
YOSHINDO'S SENSEI (TEACHER) WAS HIS GRAND FATHER "KUNIIE ( KATSUYOSHI ) YOSHIHARA", WHO WAS BORN IN "IWARAKI PREFECTURE, IN 1894, HE MOVED TO TOKYO AS A YOUNG MAN AND BECAME THE STUDENT OF "SHIGETSUGU KASAMA", AND "AKIHIDE (HIKOSABORO) KUNIHARA", HE WAS CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF THERE FINEST STUDENTS. HIS WORKS ARE MAINLY DONE IN THE KOTO STYLE. DURING WW II, HE TRAINED SWORD SMITHS FOR THE ARMY, A POSITION OF GREAT HONOR. HE PASSED AWAY IN SHOWA 45, AT AGE 76.
THE FATHER OF YOSHINDO IS, "KUNIIE MASAHIRO" A WELL KNOWN SWORD MAKER. HIS OLDER BROTHER IS THE FAMOUS "KUNIIE SHOJI" WHO CARRIES HIS GRAND FATHERS NAME. HE IS AN EXTREMELY ACCOMPLISHED SWORD SMITH. HE ALSO HOLDS THE COVETED TITLE OF " MUKANSA" (ABOVE ENTERING ANY CONTEST). HE HAS MADE MAJOR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE ART OF SWORD MAKING. I HAVE SEEN A BLADE BY HIM, DONE IN THE KAMAKURA BIZEN STYLE. THE HADA (BLADE GRAIN STRUCTURE), AND CHOJI HAMON (TEMPERING), ARE MARVELOUS."
The sword is in fact a tool and a weapon. It is not to be used lightly by a dedicated practitioner in foolish pursuits like cutting fruit or water bottles or pool noodles, but when used with respect for the art, and in accordance with accepted practices....it is a fundamental part of training.....you are not only testing the sword, you are most certainly testing yourself.
My Sensei, when he was alive, said it was better to train, even in an art that we had universal disdain for, than to not train at all.
Here is a link to the lineage of my art that goes back to the 1600's:
http://www.knbk.org/history-and-genealogy-of-tosa-iai
I'll leave it at that.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Last edited:
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- Jan 9, 2015
- Messages
- 56
Yoshindo Yoshihara is a smith who, like me, understands test-cutting is fundamental to the bladesmith's knowledge and growth. You learn what works and what doesn't. The crucifix analogy is foolish- crucifixes are not made to be cutting tools. Swords are. You would not use the ceremonial sword of any state to cut with- that would be disrespectful- but the nihonto in its normal incarnation is often beautiful, a work of art, but still basically a weapon, and bears likely little resemblance or relation to what the original "Treasure Sword" was- likely a fairly short, double-edged ken type dating to the early Japanese period of pre-800 AD, and possibly an import- in any case, bearing the same resemblance to the classic nihonto as a fencing foil does to a cavalry sabre- they both have a handle and a pointy end, that's about it.
I would say don't test-cut with antiques, however, as you don't know the stresses these might have been under.
I would say don't test-cut with antiques, however, as you don't know the stresses these might have been under.
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I agree wholeheartedly with the ridiculousness of the comparison to the crucifix, and probably should have edited that out, but I still understand how the mentality of the sword having a now different sense of being. Like I said, I'm sure that this attitude is a result of the effects of WW2 and the occupation and that they had to strenuously assert that these were not weapons but art or semi-religious objects to save them from destruction.
In some ways, it's much like what happened to Kyudo and how it's changed over time. There is a big difference between the target shooters and the more "zen" shooters in philosophy.
STeven, it's no a ryu thing so much as something particular to the ZNIR. Also I am not trying to cast aspersions on your organization in any way. At the high levels the iai is incredible and an inspiration from every ryu. I just feel privileged to have some good instruction where there is so much dross out there. As a practitioner I'm sure you can see when the iai is clearly missing the point even when it looks okay. There are so many yoko ichimonji from mae that miss the "target" due to improper techinique and instantly one knows that the form is lacking substance. For what it's worth, we are constantly reminded to think of each technique as a "cut" not just placing the sword at the end point, if you know what I mean.
As I said, there are great limitations up here in Canada to exposure to others' styles.
Hopefully some day I can witness your training.
ps.. I know who Yoshindo Yoshihara is (you don't have to shout it at me.. ie the caps.. ha ha)
My ryu.. Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu has a similarly long heritage.
The comment about the tests you mention fall in line with idea of testing the sword, not the swordsman. As I said before, I am all in favour of learning to actually cut but only when one has proper technique in iaido. I don't like the idea of learning technique by "hacking" targets. That seems somehow disrespectful to the art.
When I studied Kendo, it was easily 6-8 months before I got to wear the men.(helmet) In Iaido, I used a bokuto for 6 months before being told I had learned all I could without going to an iaito. I prefer this approach to training and in some cases this would be considered too quick.
Now in my club there are people who have been to 4 classes and have gone out and bought iaito. I'm not saying that they aren't going to learn but there is an aspect of earning the right to use an iaito that I think is necessary.
But, I prefer a stricter more "Japanese" approach to dojo etiquette than is often found in the west.
I'm sure, in future, my practice will include cutting and iaijutsu as the practical applications interest me and as a smith, I agree that my swords need to be tested.
But, that's the organization I'm in and I can understand their stance.
Being founded the same year as the NBTHK, I think the ZNIR were probably adherents to the idea of the practice of iaido as "art" not war. The sword then is not a "weapon". Just as the bow in Kyudo is not training for hunting or battle (and if you've ever done kyudo, as I have, it's a very impractical art for much more than cultivating patience and enduring pain with composure.. ha ha.)
althesmith.. I think you're being too literal as I think comparison to the treasure sword is meant "in spirit" not form. Anyway, one could argue that everything in Japan is an import except perhaps where the Ainu are concerned. Most of their arts and culture in some form came from China but where Japan excels is what they do with it after they get it.. That's their genius.
Anyway... everyone can go cut to their hearts content. I have learned a lot from this discussion and certainly appreciate the thoughts that go to both sides of this question. I happen to be in the ZNIR and as such must abide "officially" by their rules.
That said,, back to the original point of this thread, I am about to "desecrate" a "nihonto" so please don't take my comments for any form of castigation or judgement. HA!
In some ways, it's much like what happened to Kyudo and how it's changed over time. There is a big difference between the target shooters and the more "zen" shooters in philosophy.
STeven, it's no a ryu thing so much as something particular to the ZNIR. Also I am not trying to cast aspersions on your organization in any way. At the high levels the iai is incredible and an inspiration from every ryu. I just feel privileged to have some good instruction where there is so much dross out there. As a practitioner I'm sure you can see when the iai is clearly missing the point even when it looks okay. There are so many yoko ichimonji from mae that miss the "target" due to improper techinique and instantly one knows that the form is lacking substance. For what it's worth, we are constantly reminded to think of each technique as a "cut" not just placing the sword at the end point, if you know what I mean.
As I said, there are great limitations up here in Canada to exposure to others' styles.
Hopefully some day I can witness your training.
ps.. I know who Yoshindo Yoshihara is (you don't have to shout it at me.. ie the caps.. ha ha)
My ryu.. Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu has a similarly long heritage.
The comment about the tests you mention fall in line with idea of testing the sword, not the swordsman. As I said before, I am all in favour of learning to actually cut but only when one has proper technique in iaido. I don't like the idea of learning technique by "hacking" targets. That seems somehow disrespectful to the art.
When I studied Kendo, it was easily 6-8 months before I got to wear the men.(helmet) In Iaido, I used a bokuto for 6 months before being told I had learned all I could without going to an iaito. I prefer this approach to training and in some cases this would be considered too quick.
Now in my club there are people who have been to 4 classes and have gone out and bought iaito. I'm not saying that they aren't going to learn but there is an aspect of earning the right to use an iaito that I think is necessary.
But, I prefer a stricter more "Japanese" approach to dojo etiquette than is often found in the west.
I'm sure, in future, my practice will include cutting and iaijutsu as the practical applications interest me and as a smith, I agree that my swords need to be tested.
But, that's the organization I'm in and I can understand their stance.
Being founded the same year as the NBTHK, I think the ZNIR were probably adherents to the idea of the practice of iaido as "art" not war. The sword then is not a "weapon". Just as the bow in Kyudo is not training for hunting or battle (and if you've ever done kyudo, as I have, it's a very impractical art for much more than cultivating patience and enduring pain with composure.. ha ha.)
althesmith.. I think you're being too literal as I think comparison to the treasure sword is meant "in spirit" not form. Anyway, one could argue that everything in Japan is an import except perhaps where the Ainu are concerned. Most of their arts and culture in some form came from China but where Japan excels is what they do with it after they get it.. That's their genius.
Anyway... everyone can go cut to their hearts content. I have learned a lot from this discussion and certainly appreciate the thoughts that go to both sides of this question. I happen to be in the ZNIR and as such must abide "officially" by their rules.
That said,, back to the original point of this thread, I am about to "desecrate" a "nihonto" so please don't take my comments for any form of castigation or judgement. HA!
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Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
I do know what you mean Stuart. We are personally not in disagreement, especially with regard to students "hacking" wara. Honestly, in running cutting competitions at enbu, the reason for the hacking is 50% bad form and 50% dull sword. Many students who do very solid waza also have no idea how to maintain a keen edge on shinken.
The caps was a copy from a website....it was going to take too much time to retype it, not yelling, lol.
We BOTH practice MJER, and for a long while we did ZNKR waza for uniformity in enbu and competition, but we don't anymore.
Again, I am with you on that. We NEVER allow beginners to use iaito or shinken until they have demonstrated basic proficiency with bokken. Shimabukuro Sensei was adamant about that.
I'm sure, in future, my practice will include cutting and iaijutsu as the practical applications interest me and as a smith, I agree that my swords need to be tested.
But, that's the organization I'm in and I can understand their stance.
Being founded the same year as the NBTHK, I think the ZNIR were probably adherents to the idea of the practice of iaido as "art" not war. The sword then is not a "weapon". Just as the bow in Kyudo is not training for hunting or battle (and if you've ever done kyudo, as I have, it's a very impractical art for learning for battle).
althesmith.. I think you're being too literal as I think comparison to the treasure sword is meant "in spirit" not form. Anyway, one could argue that everything in Japan is an import except perhaps where the Ainu are concerned. Most of their arts and culture in some form came from China but where Japan excels is what they do with it after they get it.. That's their genius.
Anyway... everyone can go cut to their hearts content. I have learned a lot from this discussion and certainly appreciate the thoughts that go to both sides of this question. I happen to be in the ZNIR and as such must abide "officially" by their rules.
That said,, back to the original point of this thread, I am about to "desecrate" a "nihonto" so please don't take my comments for any form of castigation or judgement. HA!
It's all good. If budo practitioners cannot have the occasional spirited discussion on differences as well as similarities, there is no point to discussion at all.
Hope to see you train as well. Unfortunately, I have a scheduling conflict with the Seattle show this year, and will be unable to attend.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 2,912
oops... if I had read your link before replying, I would have noticed the same founder.. Hayashizaki Jinsuke Minamoto no Shigenobu
Thanks for the thoughtful and measured responses. I have learned a lot from this discussion and have more avenues to inquiry as a result.
It's looking like Seattle isn't going to work for me either this year so hopefully we shall meet again soon.
Stuart
NihontoEd
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2011
- Messages
- 691
Stuart,
I took a little more time to look at it again. In regards to your original question regarding the mei/sword. As I said it is obviously new, so perhaps it is a made in Japan practice sword. There is a name for them that simply evades me, but there is a shop in Kyoto, right off Maruta-Matchi Dori across from the Budo training hall on the grounds of the Heian Shrine which supplies most if not all the locals with gear for Kendo, Iai etc.. I saw these practice blades there and the owner told me that they were Japanese swords, but not made with the quality you see in actual Nihonto. They are genuine swords used for practice (didn't ask about cutting) but not of value for collectors of Nihonto.
As for the mei, I'm not sure about the references to Horikawa Kunihiro, except that it ain't him !
I didn't elaborate previously, but of course the kanji for "Kuni" and "tsukuru" are obvious. I suppose if you allow for artistic liberties, a lot of liberty, I could possibly agree with the "Hiro", but it is very poorly done.
The kanji above Kuni, absolutely not "Horikawa" (堀川
. I suspect perhaps it is two kanji separated so widely, I first thought it was three, in a feeble attempt at "Shinano" (信濃.
Here is an example of what "Shi" "Nano" and "Hiro" look like on an actual Nihonto:
View attachment 522064
Hope this helps.
I took a little more time to look at it again. In regards to your original question regarding the mei/sword. As I said it is obviously new, so perhaps it is a made in Japan practice sword. There is a name for them that simply evades me, but there is a shop in Kyoto, right off Maruta-Matchi Dori across from the Budo training hall on the grounds of the Heian Shrine which supplies most if not all the locals with gear for Kendo, Iai etc.. I saw these practice blades there and the owner told me that they were Japanese swords, but not made with the quality you see in actual Nihonto. They are genuine swords used for practice (didn't ask about cutting) but not of value for collectors of Nihonto.
As for the mei, I'm not sure about the references to Horikawa Kunihiro, except that it ain't him !
I didn't elaborate previously, but of course the kanji for "Kuni" and "tsukuru" are obvious. I suppose if you allow for artistic liberties, a lot of liberty, I could possibly agree with the "Hiro", but it is very poorly done.
The kanji above Kuni, absolutely not "Horikawa" (堀川
. I suspect perhaps it is two kanji separated so widely, I first thought it was three, in a feeble attempt at "Shinano" (信濃.Here is an example of what "Shi" "Nano" and "Hiro" look like on an actual Nihonto:
View attachment 522064
Hope this helps.