melted three blades ?

W

wingchun74

Joined
Apr 20, 2006
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I got three knives ready for ht, one was for a buddy leaving for deployment in Afcrapistan. It was awesome, best knife I've made, very similar to a smaller Busse I've seen.

The first two seemed ok, not bent or warped. The third the tip melted off about two inches of it. I went to sand down the first two and noticed where the steel was bubbling and the tip of one was gone. They were only in the forge a couple minutes.

Seems I let them get too hot. What temp does 1095 and 1084 start to get damaged?

This was with a bbq and hair dryer forge using charcoal made from oak. Next time.

Anyone else melt a blade?

I was very upset as I really want to surprise my buddy with a knife before he left ( for his third tour). I worked very hard on all three and really took alot of time with them. I used the bubble jig and they were the best knives I've made to date. I was proud of my work and really wanted to post pics to show everyone and Fred Rowe how nice they turned out with the help of his amazing jig. I have no choice but to chalk it up to a learning experience.

Just before this happened I was thinking how easy knife making is compared to making longbows from wood. ha

Thanks,
Jason
 
1095
slow heat to 1525 , soak for 4 to 5 min bigger blade , smaller blades 3 to 4 min.
Oil should be 130 to 140f. Park#50
Temper @450 2 times for 2 hours at a time, with cool-down between


vern
 
Let me interject here for a moment.
If you have no better control of your heat treating procedures than a hair dryer and a charcoal forge, PLEASE don't give a knife to a US Soldier who may need to depend upon that knife to save his life or another soldier's life.
That knife was already worthless looooooooooong before you burnt the tip off, as it had already experienced extreme grain growth and would have broken off with the slightest of lateral stress.
Spend some more time upgrading both your knowledge of heat treating and the minimal equipment to control the correct process.
It was honorable of you to have the desire to help your friend.
 
wingchun74 said:
Just before this happened I was thinking how easy knife making is compared to making longbows from wood. ha
Click to expand...

This is your first problem.

Nothing about hot working with high carbon steel is "easy". Especially 1095. I have been forging and heat treating for 10 years and I still sweat every thermal process my blades go through. You need to read all of Kevin Cashen's stickys before you attempt to forge or heat treat anything that someone will be trusting to save their life. If you want to make a knife for your friend, get some Starrett O-1 from MSC and file/grind away anything that dosn't look like a knife and have it professionally heat treated.

Do some homework.
 
i see that you can buy bar stock(1095,5160,etc) that a novice can file into some semblance of a blade,and i see that it is reccommended that the finished product be professionally heat treated. the question is where does one send the blade for
final heat treatment?
 
Peter's Heat Treat does all kinds of steel - oil hardening or air hardening. Texas Knifemaker's Supply and Paul Bos do only air hardening steels.
 
I hope I don't ruffle any feathers here but sometimes the only way to learn is through the little mistakes you make along the way. If it were me I wouldn’t send off for heat treat if heat treating is something you want to learn. Just know your knives will not be perfect at first so maybe you should keep them for yourself for a while to test then if you’re satisfied give them out. I would build me a little gas forge to heat treat in. It’s a lot easier to judge the temp in my opinion. Save your charcoal to forge in. However know that the heat treat starts with the heat cycles in forging too. Forge at the correct temps. An easy gas forge to make is something similar to the "coffee can forge" using Mapp gas. If you built a forge that will melt steel out of a charcoal grill and hairdryer you are plenty capable of building a small gas forge. I would use a simpler steel to heat treat such as 1080. Even though 1095 is classified as simple steel it is nothing of the sort in the heat treat. Judge your temps with a magnet and try to heat treat indoors or at least in the shade so you can see the temp colors. Maybe start with just strips of steel to test with instead of ruining a good blade. I don't recall who said this on here but it was good advice, do a lot of research and when you get it figured out research some more there is always something to learn. Again I hope I didn't step on any feet here and good luck to ya.
 
:eek::eek: That is indeed cooking.

1084 is the right choice for a backyard heat treat if there is one, but you need to know your temperatures! Once you exceed your target/critical temperature, grain growth can happen explosively. This will create a very brittle structure as Karl pointed out.

--nathan
 
Thanks for the input guys.

I didn't realize it would get that hot either. I've read a lot on charcoal forges and one guy said that a hair dryer isn't strong enough, well I guess it's more than strong enough. This is the first time I tried to ht with this set up. I'll be a whole heck of a lot more careful next time.

I've made about a dozen knives so far, all heat treated by me in a pit type or hobo stove forge. One knife that was made from a file I made to test, I beat the crap out of the thing, chopping and hammering it through logs and it even remained pretty sharp after a lot of abuse. The first knife I made I carry everyday, I made it out of one of my Granddad's old files. The thing is very sharp and stays sharp very good.

I've seen the plans to build a propane forge out of a coffee can also in video's on youtube and they look fairly simple. I take it people have good success with these? More so than charcoal?

There's just something I like about working with charcoal. Maybe I'll just use it for knives I want to keep. I guess from now on I'll have to start with very low air and constantly check for nonmagnetic. I just got back in from finishing up a new blade for heat treat. I'll give it another go, this one is fairly large, about a 6" blade and 1/4" thick. Wish me luck.

The word spread and I now have a few people that want me to make them a knife. It only makes sense to send them out to be heat treated to know or sure how hard they are. Not worrying about warping or bending a blade would be nice. About how much is it to have Peters ht a blade?

Thanks for the help guys,
Jason
 
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1500 is a good temp for 1095, some people go as high as 1525, others as low as 1475.

1600 is way too hot

1700 will have serious grain growth issues will probably not make a good blade without thermal cycling to refine grain

1800

1900
2000
2100 getting into welding heats here
2200
.
.
2500 things start to melt
 
I would normalize three times and re-heat treat the other blades.Get yourself a piece of pipe and seal one end with a cap or hammer it closed.Then buy a thermacouple and put it in the pipe and then put the pipe into your forge.The pipe will help to make the heat even and the thermacouple will tell you the exact temp.Heat treating is the one area of knife making you can't cheap out on.No matter how nice a knife looks,without proper heat treating its useless.
 
I agree with all the comments about proper heat treatment. However there's no reason
you have to give up charcoal for forging if you don't want too. While a lot of smiths
(from masters to beginners like me) prefer propane, a lot of others prefer coal or
charcoal. One of the advantages commonly cited is better heat control for both
high and low heats compared to propane. I don't really know how completely true
this is but my one time trying to use coal (at Ashokan last year) is also the only time
I've ever actually burnt a blade.

Look at Tai Goo's video for a very unconventional take on that subject by a real expert.

The problem with heat treating anything but the simplest steels in a solid fuel forge is that
it is a lot harder to maintain a very even, moderately low temperature for an extended
period of time (think 1475-1525 F for 10+ minutes). It's very much harder
if you're trying to do it by eye and feel.
 
Yep, if you want to continue down the charcoal forge heat treat path, remember that it's just as much an art as a science. You need to practice practice practice, and stick with one kind of steel so that you can get consistent with it. Even switching between 1095 and 1084 requires different heat treating procedures.
 
Without decent temp. control there is no way I would have 3 ready to HT blades in the fire at once, and at this stage you should not be taking your eyes off of the blade for more that a few seconds while it is heating.

I would have to second the recommendation to get a professional HT, or do extensive testing of your own HT, on a knife that is headed for military service.
 
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Is it possible to do swords or other longer things in the coffee can forges or the charcoal BBQ forges? Or does the blade cool down too fast when it is pulled out or pushed farther in to let a different part of the blade get hot?

This is making me second guess doing my own forging. Havent tried but am working my way up there.

Maybe I should just get a computer controlled heat oven thingy. Can those do 1095 and other carbon steels?
 
An oven can heat treat any steel you like and perform other thermal treatments such as spherodized anneals. But if you're talking about forging, you only need to heat 4-6 inches worth of steel to pound on. If you're trying to harden a long blade in a can forge, you may have more trouble getting the temp high enough and even.

--nathan
 
So even the stainless like 440, ats34, etc can be done in a gas forge? Just harder to keep the temperature for a long time?
 
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