Mercenaries banned in Iraq

DannyinJapan

DannyinJapan

Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,594
Blackwater is basically out of business now.
I think that will cause a push of some kind in recruiting, who knows?
It is hard to believe that almost 50% of our forces in Iraq are private contractors...
No more...
 
I doubt it. It's not a mere matter of a license being revoked. It instantly became a matter of recognizing the legitimate authority of the new Iraqi government. They want mercs out, so they are out.
We'll have to find another way.
 
Blackwater is by far not all the mercenaries in Iraq, and only BW has been called on to leave.
Iraq is also not the only place BW is working, they'll hardly go out of business -- unless it's simply to incorporate under a different name and keep working.
 
I would be hesitant to describe BW as "mercs". They are not for hire by just anyone but rather only work where US interests are involved. None the less they were doing contract training for US Special Forces long before Iraq and will, I feel, easily survive this episode.

Having said that, I am also not sure that they have or need a license to operate in Iraq. They are under contract to the US government and have maintained all along that since they are a part of the “US forces” in Iraq, they can not be sued for actions in that theatre. My guess is that so long as the US government wants them there, the Iraq government can do little to get them out.

If memory serves, a BW employee recently shot and killed an Iraq driver or body guard in a drunken brawl. I think the employee in question was taken out of Iraq which created something of a stir with the Iraq government. I have read that BW has a pretty hard reputation in Iraq (e.g. when they show up people on the street usually back away). I suspect that the Iraq government has been motivated for some time to get this particular contractor out.
 
If Iraq wants them out, they are out, and as my friend Hollow pointed out in another forum, this can be viewed as a positive from the standpoint of an emerging goverment flexing its wings.



munk
 
My son works on a construction crew with a man in Blackwater. The fellow isn't a steady eddy, just there once in a while. [why I don't know] What I do know they kill people when the military won't or can't. Sad but the truth. His most difficult time was wasting a 12 year old girl who wouldn't keep her distance with a school bag.

I 've been told the scum bag Arabs test the "lines" with "innocents" looking for weaknesses. Blackwater doesn't have as many "slips" as the US forces.
They do protect the bussiness and political mucky mucks.

go here for some insight..................................
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=72631
 
Wow, sams, that's ridiculous. They just shot 12-year-old girl with a school bag for crossing a line? Hearing that, I'm thrilled they're out of Iraq and I hope they go out of business. I understand that operational security is important, but that's just wrong. Jeez, were they even warning her in Arabic? Could she have been deaf? Good Lord.

Sure, they say that those "scum bag Arabs" test the lines with innocents, but what if she was actually innocent? And was there a bomb?

I'm sorry to have to take this line, but it's things like this that prolong the insurgency. If we shoot 12-year-old girls for approaching contractors with her school bag, what must they think of us? What would you think if that was your daughter?

Come on, guys, what does America stand for in the world? Is this how we want to be known?

Chris
 
Thing is, we Americans wouldn't have some schoolgirl go out there under those circumstances just to "test the waters". You gotta remember we're dealing with an enemy who sees nothing wrong with doing such things. They see it as a win-win situation-- we shoot the kid, it looks bad on us; the kid gets close enough and they detonate whatever they told her to carry in her bag, and we lose a few more of our own. Granted, this is not how we want to be known, but the enemy has put us in this position. I just hope the Iraqi people can see past the propaganda and BS that the terrorist are putting out and kick these bastards out of their country on their own...
 
Ok, inferno, I can see your point. And surely a fair amount of that has, sadly, taken place. But the problem is that there's such a high risk that it's just some dumb kid with no malicious intent, who just happened to wander out into the wrong street at the wrong time and accidentally get too close to the wrong dude. I mean, it's urban warfare--there's going to be a lot of collateral damage.

Inferno, you said that you hoped the Iraqi people can kick the terrorists out, and I surely agree, but many would say there's a difference between a terrorist and an insurgent. A terrorist is the guy who'd send out the little girl with a bomb or blow up a crowded market to create what the name implies: terror. An insurgent, however, is just a disaffected Iraqi who's seen one too many dead little girls and wants to kick out the Americans himself. I know this is a vast oversimplification, but it leads to a point: how do you kick out an insurgency when the insurgents are comprised of the general population, and the more you fight it, the more members and strength they get--when, the more you defend your forces, the more grieving fathers there are to fight you?

I remember reading about the new counterinsurgency manual that the Army released (Petraeus actually co-authored). It acknowledged many such paradoxes, such as the fact that the more force you apply, the less effective your force will be. It has a kind of zen quality to it, almost. If we want to "win" this conflict--and by that, I mean get Iraq stable enough to withdraw--we're going to have to challenge such practices as shooting a little girl who may or may not have a bomb. We're going to have to convince the Iraqi people that we are really not the bad guys (or, at least, the worst guys). Anbar's a good example right now, with the Sunni militias attacking al-Qaeda alongside our forces. But the problem is that many of them are still bent on getting the US out. It's just a matter of which problem to face first.

I think that it's important to realize when we're making mistakes so we can learn from them. Killing innocents is a mistake that must be minimized to the utmost. After all, it's only in learning from our errors that we have any chance at averting disaster.

Did I mention I like good discussions? :)

Chris
 
DannyinJapan said:
Blackwater is basically out of business now.
I think that will cause a push of some kind in recruiting, who knows?
It is hard to believe that almost 50% of our forces in Iraq are private contractors...
No more...
Click to expand...

I think that there were only a couple thousand Blackwater guys in Iraq -- and most of the "private contractors" are employed in support capacities.

It's a shame about the girl with the bookbag, but we don't know the whole story and probably never will. The insurgents (in a variety of Muslim countries, including Somalia) have had women and children standing right next to masked men with weapons to prevent soldiers from defending themselves -- or to provide a "propaganda victory" if they do. And I'm familiar with several cases of young boys who'd been recruited as suicide bombers, and one female. It is very likely that she was ordered to disobey orders to back off and approach the men protecting the convoy -- who were no doubt yelling very loudly and pointing automatic rifles directly at her -- in hopes that they'd shoot her. I'm surprised it wasn't reported in the media.
 
Namaarie: Gotcha there. Thing is, these people brainwash kids from a young age and convince them that dying like this glorifies you and your family. There is no easy answer to this situation, and I agree that meeting them force-to-force will just cause things to escalate. I remember reading the memoirs of panzer commander Hans von Luck; he describes how on the Eastern Front they came across dogs that were rigged with explosives-- the dogs were trained to find meat under vehicles, and the Germans were forced to shoot any dogs they came across after a few ran under their half-tracks and trucks. Hard to fight against an enemy that is driven by a skewed perception of their religious beliefs...
 
I agree that it is a bad thing and hard choices have to be made in war, but reflect for a moment on the fact that you were able to justify in your mind that it's OK to shoot a 12 year old girl in this situation.

Now put yourself in the Iraqis shoes. What actions are they able to justify by the US being the occupying force in their country?

Have you seen the Iraqis weep for their dead? They care about human life as much as we do(At least the average citizen does) People are people and unfortunately that goes both ways: good and bad.

I think it would send a bad message to not remove the Blackwater troops per the wishes of the Iraqi government. It would basically be stating that they are powerless and we don't respect them. In order to give the Iraqi gov't legitimacy they have to be removed. I'll be very interested in what happens.
 
tedwca said:
Now put yourself in the Iraqis shoes. What actions are they able to justify by the US being the occupying force in their country?
. . .
I think it would send a bad message to not remove the Blackwater troops per the wishes of the Iraqi government. It would basically be stating that they are powerless and we don't respect them. In order to give the Iraqi gov't legitimacy they have to be removed. I'll be very interested in what happens.
Click to expand...

You make a couple very good points. Unfortunately, the situation in the Middle East seems completely hopeless at this point.

The Islamic belief system is completely alien to us. They seem bizarre, unreasonable, and unwilling to compromise or peaceably assimilate into civilized cultures. And they are taught that Westerners are "demonic" and ought to be eliminated through whatever means necessary.

There does not seem to be a peaceable solution to this. The problem is not just in Iraq, but with extremist militant Islamic groups all over the world. And the moderate Muslims seem unwilling to speak out against the human rights violations and support of terrorist groups -- either because they secretly agree with them, or because they're afraid of being targeted themselves.

Ground troops aren't working out in Iraq -- that whole country seems to be against us -- and nukes are bad for the environment -- and no-one wants to be condemned by the international community -- I have no idea what is going to happen over there, but I certainly do not forsee a happy ending.
 
Re: the 12-year old.
Is it horrible to shoot a 12-year old? Yes.
Is it MORE horrible to send out your OWN KID to test "enemy" perimeters? YES.
Was it the correct thing to do? Yes.
OK, I understant the touchy-feely "put yourself in the Iraqi's place" thing. Now, put yourself in our guys' place. You have a society where it's OK to send your kid out do die killing the "enemy" (or be told to do so, or the whole family gets whacked). Kids HAVE been used, too frequently, to carry bombs into the loving arms of the "soldiers of the Great Satan" to kill them. Sorry, but whether it's BW or military, if you let a bomb into your perimeter, you've failed your mission. There mission was to protect the assets they were in place to protect. If a little kid comes up with a bag and WILL NOT stop or retreat (to be honest even if they weren't warning her in Arabic, or she was deaf, a rifle pointed at you and the guy holding it pointing with his finger back the way you came is universal talk for "you're not wanted/allowed to be here."), then you shoot them.
Is it horrible? Once again, yes. Would it have been more horrible for her to have gotten up there, and the next thing the guy knew, he's thrown back 20 feet and he's covered in his buddy's guts. He goes to wipe the gore off his face, but the arm is missing below the elbow and he can vaguely see the leg on that side laying back where he was standing. Would that have been more horrible? YES!

If you've never been in that situation, then you can't say if they were wrong or not.

These people have been doing this TO EACH OTHER since the beginning of time. It isn't going to stop just because we are over there, and it isn't going to stop no matter how nicey-nicey we are to them. In fact, paradoxically to us, the nicer we are, they see it as weakness and attack more. Why do you think every Arab country is a rather brutal dictatorship (no matter what they call it on paper)? It's the only way to rule over there. OK, they are an eastern people. Western societies can't understand how they think.


Back on track a bit. It's my opinion that if the Iraqi government is "flexing it's wings" as one poster put it, that's great. However, they should be notified that if they are big and tough enough to kick out those whop are protecting them, then they are big enough to do the job themselves. So they need to tell their own people to get up to snuff, because if they demand we pull some of our people out, we're pulling them ALL out.
 
It is somewhat inaccurate, IMO, to say about contractors "What I do know they kill people when the military won't or can't." They are not paid to be hit men, it would be more accurate to say that they have MUCH more liberal rules of engagement than the U.S. Military, which has allowed them to be more proactive in a threat environment, thus more effective in a protection role. This is important if you want to send your CEO to set up business deals in Iraq.
 
Would it not have been better all round (except perhaps for the corporate profit of certain NeoCons in US government and their cronies) to have left Saddam in power?
The state that Iraq's been in since the war, and number of casualties, suggests he had been doing a pretty good job of maintaining order - and keeping the militants out.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Re: the 12-year old.

These people have been doing this TO EACH OTHER since the beginning of time. It isn't going to stop just because we are over there, and it isn't going to stop no matter how nicey-nicey we are to them. In fact, paradoxically to us, the nicer we are, they see it as weakness and attack more. Why do you think every Arab country is a rather brutal dictatorship (no matter what they call it on paper)? It's the only way to rule over there. OK, they are an eastern people. Western societies can't understand how they think.
Click to expand...


I've known this from the beginning. I've worked with enough Middle Easterners to have a grasp of how they think. You are right, they respect force, but we are not willing to commit the level of force required so we will never calm the area down.
 
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