Merits Of The Liner Lock

R

RKH

Joined
Oct 29, 2005
Messages
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Quite a discussion on Emerson forums on the merits of the liner lock as a good lock or not. I remember reading in Blade and Fighting knives how much stronger the liner lock was than the back lock. Your post made me look at QUALITY liner locks more carefully as I did not trust any of the cheaper liner locks. I was at a gun show several years a go and a knife dealer spine whacked a CRKT knife to show the strength of the lock. Over time a looked more carefully at this type of lock. I began to notice how thin many Liner locks were and then I read your posts and comments on how to check liner locks. Quite informative. I trust my Sebeneza and the Ouperator you made for me above all other knives I own. I have always thought of locks on folders as something to help keep the knife open and protect your hands but not foolproof as any folder can be defeated! A SOG I gave my 14 year old son which was a lock back failed. Luckily he was not injured but he was abusing the knife. As for quality control on well made folders I have has problems with Emerson Knives...Screws come loose from factory on brand new knife, came open in pocket on many occasions and with the tip up carry stopped carrying the knife. Also, had a Commander that when closed the point was about a tiny degree above the handle. The ball detent worked but not enough to pull it all the way down into the handle.Some Benchmade knives also came open in my pocket and they were tip down carry. No problems with Spyderco. Too many liner locks can be flipped open because of weak ball detects, BM Deja Vue and spyderco comes to mind. I want my liner lock or frame locks where I cannot flip them open. For safety and for legal reasons. And I do like the axis lock which I think is the best on the market. And it seems some proponents of different knife companies cannot take the criticism but it is just a learning experience. By the way, I have had problems with most major knife companies and am not just picking on any one company.Sorry, did not mean to ramble on.
RKH
 
Yeah. It goes with the territory and gets that way sometimes for the messenger. I guess thats what I get for trying to help someone answer a question.

My CQC14 has a slightly better contact then the one pictured in that thread and mine fails even a light spine tap easily. I still like the knife but I'm cautious of it and use it solely like a slip joint that may as well not lock. I've had older BenchMades and Spydercos that have done this also and the one thing most of these all have in common more than the thickness of the lock is the sharp pitch angle making it a pretty easy ramp for the lock to slide right off the contact when you put pressure on the tip of the blade.

I quit making liner locks for a reason. Mainly, they are like children you bring up thinking you have done everything just the way you should and been a good parent so that when they leave home they leave without needing your support that much anymore but then they keep coming back and always when they need something, never just for a visit! :-) It gets old very fast. Since switching to a frame lock and an occasional lockback (rare) they have been far less problematic for me. When you see a maker building them the way some do with the lock barely engaging you can read into that that they too have had issues of their 'children' coming home a lot more often than they'd admit in all liklihood and like mine it was when they were in need which is the reason they build them so the lock barely engages the blade at first. In their mind this puts a bit more time between its next time it pays them a visit. In my mind its a simple recipe for nerve and tissue damage to the unaware users fingers thinking the lock is secure that way. I don't want to get going on this because I know many people will shoot the messenger over these comments.

My take is very simple though. Some of the uses a liner lock gents folder are put in and advertised as handling are criminal in my opinion. A gents folder is a gents folder. If you put a tactical design to it, doll it up to look beefy and give it a big bull pivot and stop, some G10 or Carbon fiber scales and call it hard use I call it a sheep in wolfs clothing when the lock is still unchanged from the gents liner lock it started out as. Increasing the length of the folder and blade for even more added leverage and not changing the lock makes those longer slim easily flexed folders even less reliable than the small short gents folders they started out as. To use more analogy; You can take your Ford two wheel drive pick up truck and put some bigger tires on it and load the bed down with some weight for better traction and you can even put a big bumper and a winch on it to make it off road and call it an off road vehicle my friend, and in truth it will do some off roading for you and it may even impress you sometimes but in the end its still a two wheel drive truck underneath with a frame not made or designed to handle what you do to it routinely. What you will see is faster wear, and more need for repairs. I decided one day I wanted something a little more 'off road worthy' in the way of what I offered my customers. I wanted them to have something that was made to handle it in the first place. Anyway, end rant.



STR
 
From what I understand the angle of the liner lock to the tang of the knife is very important to maintain a good lock up. By the way, I have found a few sypderco and emerson fans that react angrily to criticism when they should be happy for some one to show the problems before some one is seriously injured.
RKH
 
Interestingly, I always thought of a steep angled tang as a good thing until I recently read some of STR and others posts. STR's comments makes sense as a steep angle would likely make the lock slide off more easily.

I really like the simplicity of the liner and frame lock. And while I've not had a liner lock fail on me, I must admit that I use knives to cut with. That said, a knife is a tool and should be robust and able to stand up to hard use situations. But anything can be broken...common sense is important too.

:)
 
Yeah most of them made up their minds and thats that. Its fine. Its just one opinion and I'm just a lowly backyard knifemechanic playing in his retirement. I think some of these guys make me out to be more than I am and some of them obviously don't know me or they'd know April and I do not hurt or need for money. We have done quite well in dentistry all our lives. I could walk away from this all tomorrow and not miss one bit of the trickle of money that comes in from it to pay for the supplies. I pay what I do on my bills with little problem and we set ourselves up so we could retire in our early 40s due to how successful we were.

I have a separate MasterCard that I set up with my bank just for internet purchases, for ordering supplies for knifemaking, and for buying gifts for the wife that I don't want her to see on our regular account and I keep these bills totally separate from all my other billing that comes in monthly. I pay that Mastercard off using the money from the knives and when the knives can't cover what I run up I'll sometimes take some from elsewhere to pay it down and I did that by giving away stuff too much and it got the wife stressed about it becoming a habit but not because it even began to hurt us financially. When I hit a run with excesss from doing this knife work I put back what I needed to pay it off and I stick that money back in my money market account where I got it. Its not rocket science. Its simple money management that has allowed me to feed my knife habit without hurting our retirement fund.

If and when the stress gets greater than the enjoyment I get from it I'll re-evaluate being here. Otherwise I'm not going to hold back from answering questions if I feel I can give an educated answer regardless of what anyone says or tries to use to leverage me into shutting up about something they don't want to hear.

STR
 
This whole debate is rather basic really.

A frame-lock is a liner-lock on steroids.
If you make the liners of a liner-lock around six times thicker and dispose of the handle scales (so you actually squeeze the super thick liner in place when holding the knife)....you have a frame lock.
Very simple really.
So, those who cannot grasp these fundamental principles are either uninformed or not very bright.

Most of the very vocal supporters (who cannot accept that their chosen brand may not be the holy grail of edged tools and just may be flawed)..... are those who cannot discuss nor debate.
No sir, if you do not agree with their opinions - you are an idiot and they become insulting.
Dirk
 
STR said:
Yeah. It goes with the territory and gets that way sometimes for the messenger. I guess thats what I get for trying to help someone answer a question.

My CQC14 has a slightly better contact then that the one pictured in that thread and mine fails even a light spine tap easily. I still like the knife but I'm cautious of it and use it solely like a slip joint that may as well not lock. I've had older BenchMades and Spydercos that have done this also and the one thing most of these all have in common more than the thickness of the lock is the sharp pitch angle making it a pretty easy ramp for the lock to slide right off the contact when you put pressure on the tip of the blade.


STR
Click to expand...

The CQC14 in the Emerson thread is mine, it is a new in box knife. I haven't carried or used the knife except for maybe opening and closing it a couple dozen times. I felt the lock was engaging solidly, shows you what I know. Anyways is it safe to assume the Liner will engage better as it wears in?

As it is I put the knife back on the market...I'm ascared of LL's now:eek:

Anyways thanks for all the great info on LL's it was an education.

Dave
 
Hi Dave. It looks just like the contacts did on about every Emerson I've bought new and many others from other companies as well. Usually when they are this way they are anything but trustworthy. I would not let it bother you about selling it though. That knife has a warranty and it was sold that way to you by EKI so sell it. It is not really your problem my friend and the 14 is a fine knife so long as you use it like a slip joint. I've had mine since they first came out.

The day the 14s were posted on Ernie's web site I ordered one right from the company and paid full retail for it. I sold it later because they mailed me what was supposed to be number 47 and it even had that number on the box but they acually sold me and mailed me number 147. I wanted a lower number since my best friend Harry is the guy that gave Ernie the idea for that folder in that size blade so I found number 61 which I still have.

For what its worth. To this day that folder defeats with light taps to the tip of the blade on a board. I've never gotten to light tap number 5 before it defeated when I put it together as a liner lock from the factory again. Most of the time it bumps the blade and defeats the lock on the first tap. I'm not talking about taps hard enough to snap the blade shut. That would certainly defeat it. I'm talking about light bumping without much more than the weight of the knife bumping the board on a solid surface. The blade flips about a 1/3 of the way up and the lock is no longer behind the blade but it releases.

My SARK, my SpecWar and my 8, and 13 all defeated very easily also. Am I just looking to pick on a guy that I deeply respect by saying this? Its the facts. Believe me I wish it were different but its not.

On the other side of the coin I've had Military folders by Spyderco here that do that, I've had BenchMade 804s here and other models I fail to remember that were more obscure that defeat with light taps, and I've had many other brands including older Kershaws. Most of Kershaws newer knives I get for testing I have done this with because Thomas mails them to me to do that to and get back to the company about. Not one of the new models he sent me to eval for them defeated this way. Not one! You know why? They make their contact better, more consistant, flatter and just overall they have it down pat. This is why I happily tell folks they make a great lock. Their edges are obtuse on most knives and more so than other brands which bothers me some but otherwise you can trust their locks as much as you can ever expect to trust a liner lock I think. I trust their locks more than Spyderco liner locks, BenchMade liner locks or Emerson liner locks hands down.

STR
 
STR, I have ordered a couple of Mcusta liner locks and read a good article in Tactical Knives on them. I went to Mcusta website MCUSTAUSA.COM and they have some nice looking knives. Mcusta stands for machine custom made knives. I will let you know what I think when I get them.
RKH
 
I've seen those and they seemed well made to me. I'm sure you'll like them.

They make one with a bamboo looking handle I've almost bought several times but never took the plunge on.

STR
 
Dave you should jump on that trade offer for your 14 from Jill. That 14200 is a damn fine folder let me tell you.

STR
 
Thanks for the input...I'm considering the 14200, doing a little research right now, I'm on the fence about the scales, I prefer the G10 scales that are on the 14205. I had a 14210 that I had to give up for my Sebe, and it was rock solid, I'll be ordering another from NGK later this week. That was my favorite EDC.

Dave
 
Are liner locks supposed to only engage the very edge of the blade? The one on my Commander goes out all the way to a bit over half the width of the blade.
 
The scales actually stick to the pocket a bit because they are kind of rubber type on the black. And contrary to how that looks its not a separate bolster and scale but all one piece. I changed mine out to Micarta but the 14205 I had I gave to my son and he loves that thing. Its a beauty but I felt the buttons for the lock protruded too far out on that one compared to the 14200. Otherwise they are identical. They also Wave quite easily and work pretty good.

STR
 
intjMastermind said:
Are liner locks supposed to only engage the very edge of the blade? The one on my Commander goes out all the way to a bit over half the width of the blade.
Click to expand...

No its actually very precarious to make them that way. Thats what I've been trying to say about them. You have to break those like that in before you can let your guard down with them. I'm not saying this to pick on anyone company or to try to stir up business. Its the way it is. Test it yourself you'll see.

Your liner lock going in about half way is a much better position and hopefully the ones that don't engage that much will work their way in once broke in to be more like your Commander. That is far more reliable and its probably fine. This doesn't mean that a liner lock is not capable of defeating of course but its far better to have the lock in behind the blade. When its at the edge, or hanging off the edge all it takes is a bump to defeat that lock. Far too many companies and makers ship their knives this way in my opinion which is reckless abandon for the safety and well being of their customers fingers.


STR
 
Your last post really makes things a little clearer for me with Liner Locks. I need to treat the LL on the 14 cautiously, or as you say like a slip joint. As the lock wears in and gets solidly behind the blade, instead of the edge, chances of a lock failure minimize?

Dave
 
Now you are getting it! :thumbup:

Thats exactly what I have been saying. Again it doesn't mean that the lock still can't defeat if the circumstances are right but its certainly going to decrease the chances of a defeat once the lock supports the blade as it should be idealy from the moment you open it to start using it.

All these guys getting angry at me for trying to save them from nerve damage should test their own knives they are defending and believe me they'll find some surprises just like all of us that have tested them have.

Personally if a company adopts the policy that they ship their knives with the lock precariously hanging off the edge of the contact interface when the blade is opened and the lock is barely engaging as many do with these type locking knives, particularly when the lock is thin and when new they should by law for fear of liabilty issues if nothing else include a note telling the end line user in advance on a sticky tape holding the wrapper around the knife that will have to be torn to get the knife out of the package that the lock requires a break in period where it should move in at least double or triple the thickness of the liners before you can trust it.

But I guess that would make too much sense and since marketing and sales classes teaches that one should not bring attention to a negative it is counter to 'good salesmanship'. Also once a company has that "INC" behind their name they are much harder to sue so I doubt they worry a whole lot about liability after that.

By the way, I apologize if my words on that thread took your trade out from under you for that knife. I did not mean to offend anyone or hurt anyone by calling things the way I see them. If you can't get rid of it contact me and I'll just buy the thing from you outright. I don't really want another 14 but I don't want bad blood or you thinking I was being underhanded or trying to be personal about it either.

STR
 
Actually alot of what you said on the EKI forum is why I put the knife up for trade. I guess I wasn't grasping what you were saying, and took it that all LL's were inferior, and prone to failure for the life of the knife. Your post here really shined the light, and now I understand that after the lock wears/breaks in and is solidly behind the blade, it is much less prone to failures, probably comparable with any other lock out there.
I will still keep the knife on the trade page, mainly because I don't care for the "wave" feature, but I'm not going to be in a hurry to trade it off, and will be patient looking for a knife that I "really" want.

Dave
 
Dave,
I'd keep that Emerson, but that's me. I did not like the Wave at first until I realized that I didn't have to use it, but if I did, there's no faster knife! Happy Holidays!
Lycosa
 
STR said:
If and when the stress gets greater than the enjoyment I get from it I'll re-evaluate being here. Otherwise I'm not going to hold back from answering questions if I feel I can give an educated answer regardless of what anyone says or tries to use to leverage me into shutting up about something they don't want to hear. STR
Click to expand...

NO! No, no, no, no... NO!

We already lost Thomas from the Kershaw forum. We can't afford to lose you,too.

I'm not familiar with the original post that you're talking about, but I have .02 to add about your BladeForums presence. Your part-time backyard knife "hobby" gives us more usable real-world info than most companies ever thought about giving us. You're a user and an addict, just like us. That's why we trust what you say. You're a knife knut, not a knife salesman.

:thumbup::thumbup: to the H&K 14205 and 14210. They are my second EDC carry along with my Caly 3. I like the 14210 so much that I have an NIB backup in the closet "just in case".
 
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