Messer question.

A

Aerindel

Joined
Jan 18, 2026
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5
Hi all, long time sword maker, first time poster....I think.....I may have had account in the distant past here, but it is lost to time.

I am making a Messer sword for the first time, and have a question about handle and guard construction that I can't seem to find an answer to.

Mostly, I am wondering how the guard is fitted, as unlike normal hidden tang swords, you see a lot of messers that have a tang that is wider at the butt, than at the tang shoulders, so if you slipped a guard on the usual way, over the end of the tang, the slot for the tang would be grossly oversized at the blade in order to fit over the tang at the end.

I'm also curious if the pommels are one piece, somehow peened on over a hidden tang portion of the full tang, or sandwiched on, like handle scales.


It has occurred to me that since the nagel is riveted through the guard, the guard could perhaps be sandwiched over the tang, instead of being slipped on in on piece, but I don't know if this is correct.
 
I have seen two methods:
1) On smaller swords, like a langes messer - The "Bird's Beak" is shaped so the guard slot can be slipped over it, as done in a knife handle. The scales are applied as normal and riveted. The scales as well as the nagle brace the guard.
2) On ones with a larger pommel, like grosses messer and kreigsmesser - tang is a stick tang and the handle slabs are inlet to mate to it.

In both cases, the nagle is peened through a hole or slot in the guard, and secures it firmly. The guards are normally hot-forged to the blade to assure a perfect fit..
 
Aerindel said:
Hi all, long time sword maker, first time poster....I think.....I may have had account in the distant past here, but it is lost to time.

I am making a Messer sword for the first time, and have a question about handle and guard construction that I can't seem to find an answer to.

Mostly, I am wondering how the guard is fitted, as unlike normal hidden tang swords, you see a lot of messers that have a tang that is wider at the butt, than at the tang shoulders, so if you slipped a guard on the usual way, over the end of the tang, the slot for the tang would be grossly oversized at the blade in order to fit over the tang at the end.

I'm also curious if the pommels are one piece, somehow peened on over a hidden tang portion of the full tang, or sandwiched on, like handle scales.


It has occurred to me that since the nagel is riveted through the guard, the guard could perhaps be sandwiched over the tang, instead of being slipped on in on piece, but I don't know if this is correct.
Click to expand...

@ilmarinen is dead on, and you can also contact some folks who have spent a lot of time with accurate reproductions of period messers and ask them directly. I would try to contact Skallagrim on YouTube. He is happy to engage folks on questions like these.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have seen two methods:
1) On smaller swords, like a langes messer - The "Bird's Beak" is shaped so the guard slot can be slipped over it, as done in a knife handle. The scales are applied as normal and riveted. The scales as well as the nagle brace the guard.
2) On ones with a larger pommel, like grosses messer and kreigsmesser - tang is a stick tang and the handle slabs are inlet to mate to it.

In both cases, the nagle is peened through a hole or slot in the guard, and secures it firmly. The guards are normally hot-forged to the blade to assure a perfect fit..
Click to expand...

This makes sense. And I always hot forge the guard on the blade. I don't have a milling machine and am 'picky' about gaps so I always chisel open the guard, then forge it over a tang blank that is close to the blade's, and finally forge on the actually blade it is for.

And then for good measure, silver solder it at the end, something I picked up from Tinker swords a long time ago that I really liked that eliminates the possibility of a 'buzz' from the hilt.


The Zieg said:
@ilmarinen is dead on, and you can also contact some folks who have spent a lot of time with accurate reproductions of period messers and ask them directly. I would try to contact Skallagrim on YouTube. He is happy to engage folks on questions like these.
Click to expand...

I've followed skal on youtube for years, but never known him to talk about construction of swords...but I will try.

It does not appear this site allows pictures, or I would just show you exactly what I am working on.
 
Upload images to imgur.com, then share the links, or use the bb codes offered in the hover of 'share links'.

iHakxor.png

J0ipH6h.png


img /img tags around an image address
 
I've used imgur in the past but gave up a couple years ago as it seems to have gotten much harder to use.

I will try here.

This is what I came up with, using a 'double shoulder' on the tang, with one being the end of the full tang handle and the other being the true shoulder for the guard.

SrcxK3N.jpeg


I'm pretty happy with how it is fitting, with the second shoulder filling the wide space made to fit over the butt of the tang.

jF2s1Q7.jpeg



Where I'm at. Everything very rough at this point obviously.

jtGgaS9.jpeg


Because of the rivet holes in this design, I've decided to make all the furniture first, so I can drill the holes in the tang, before heat treating.
 
I know on certain english made knives, and some California gold rush knives, the guard was slipped up into place first, and then the butt of the tang was forged out wider. This also makes a nice tapered tang. Of course, the guard must be made of steel, since many other alloys would just melt when heating the tang. I don't know if messers were done this way, but it may be worth researching.
 
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