Microtech Socom, Al Mar Shrike, Chinook, or Zero Tolerance 0400 for SD? Pics inside

J

jinuineasn

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Aug 16, 2005
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I'm considering these three or the spydie chinook. I have been looking for an afck with no luck. So between the microtech, al mar, Spyderco Chinook, or ZT knife, which one would you want with you for SD purposes? Any other knife I should consider? Anybody have experience with any of these knives? Thanks in advance. CCW is not an option by the way.

Microtech Socom
MT116-10.jpg


Al Mar Shrike
al_shrike_s1


Zero Tolerance 0400
policestuff_1939_36890979
 
I love the fact that the 400 has a tanto point (something I usually opt out of) but has a nice recurve cutting surface. I have heard from several 400 owners that the knife cuts well and aggresively. I dont like recomending one on SD merit as I find that these threads are always full of advice from people that are shure one paticular knife is more lethal even though they have never been in a knife fight, let alone with the actual blade in question. Those are 3 good knive though and I dont think you will find alot of smack talked about any of them. I think the Al Mar and the ZT have a higher fit n finish than MT and have better customer service for shure. People will discount the 400 for having liner locks but that is crazy talk. ZT knives are well made and the liners are no joke. They are thick, well nested and up to the job. If you get any knife with liner locks and it travels to far across the lock up surface of the blade send it back. Follow that rule and well made liner locks are great. Self deffence is not something that should be stressing the lock anyways. People are soft targets by anyones standard. All of these knives would server you well as EDC anyways, dont have much experince with the shrike but Al Mar makes solid folders. Chinook is a nice knife with a very strong lock, but again I wouldnt choose a folder by lock type, I know alot of people do.
 
The Shrike is a high quality folder with great fit and finish. The blade is thin and very very sharp. It could slide into flesh with zero resistance and slice like there's no tomorrow. But it is not really built for heavy duty, and I think with that thin blade you might be better off with something else for SD.
 
I do not recommend liner locks for self defense. The Chinook was made specefically for self defense, and is a wickedly good self defense blade. As a result, it is also one of the strongest utility folders, and is far stronger than the others. It can also be used an impact weapon. I find it more ergonomical than the Shrike or Socom, although I have not handled the ZT.
 
TTT

I am also looking at 2 of these knives particularly the Al Mar. I am interested in getting some more views.
Cheers
 
I would also say the chinook first and the shrike last. Chinook has a very good handle, a very good lock, a very good blade, and is also the least expensive. I don't have any real defensive knife trainning, but in my opinion, the best three knives for that are the bm 806, the emerson cqc-12, and the spyderco chinook3. If the socom was a frame lock, It would be #4.
 
If one has no training how could you possibley pick the best 3 SD knives out of literally thousands? I dont mean any disprespect but this is the problem with these threads.

What makes a frame lock better for SD? To test lock strength you put the blade in a vise and push till the lock snaps or fails in some way (horizontal or lateral). In what SD situation will these type of forces come to bear on your knife? When you are trying to stop a falling car with you knife? Using your knife as brass knuckles will not break you lock. Stabbing a human will not break your lock, hell stabbing a brick wall will not break your lock. Slicing a human will not break a lock, slicing a brick wall will not break your lock. My point is why do people make these assumption about SD knives? Some martial artist I know said liner locks suck for SD. Some maker wont use that lock type. The fact is that the sucess of the "tactical" pocket knife is due largely to the ATCF and early Al Mar's and they were largely liner locks to begin with. To say that the chinooks lock is stronger by design is true. To say the Chinook is a stronger folder by far than the ZT400 is assumption. The thickness of the steel liners on the ZT are very thick and I would stress test that knife against anything. The results would probably show the chinook to be stronger but it would not be by any large margin and both forces would be well beyond your personal strength to apply without a vise and cheat stick (lateral you may be able to break the pivot but I doubt the lock). In any event the materials, construstion, fit, blade length and handle length will all come into play and the pivot will be weaker.

If you suggest someone trust there life to one certain knife you are placing a LARGE wieght on your opinion. If you know your opinion is hersay or repeating what someone else said, how can you do this? If someone asked about a good SD pistol I can safely say Glock, a well made 1911 and a reliable S&W revolver are my suggestion deppending on the skill and practice level of the shooter. I would tell them that unless they will practice a known and safe form of shooting not to buy one at all. I know all of these pistols have been deployed for this purpose thousands of times and have worked well and have even had to rely on one myself. Can anyone say that about any knife at all except maybe the original sykes daggers and issued bayonets? Even if you happen to be in a SD situation with a knife it will not be a calm event and the knife in question may not do anything special or tactial other than slice or stab someone quickly. This may or may not save your life. The last thing you will come away from the experience with is detailed nitpicky insight into how your knife preformed unless your hand slid up onto the blade or something simmilarly catastrophic. Only the coroner will know the exact dammage caused by the blade.

Again I dont mean any disrespect to anyone, but I think asking about SD knives will give you a bunch of random vague opinions all garnered from different perspectives (that includes mine). This is not the type of information to stake your life on. If you really want to use knives for SD then study a specific style of knife fighting and train rain or shine. This style, whatever it is, will be the deciding factor on what knife is best for the job. Even if it is just a set of guildines for getting through the situation most styles of deffense have aspects that make one knife more suitable and practicing what you would like yourself to do in the situation will make it more likely that you will.

No one wants to admit that when it comes to stabbing and slicing almost any knife will do (yes some tip are ill suited to stabbing, they will still mostly puncture humans), as long as it's not some gun show chinese knock off that will fall apart in your hand. I think 99% of knife talk in the SD range is specualtion and training day in and day out doesnt change specualtion to fact untill the tactic and knife have been put through a large number of real world factors that could help/impeed there sucess to work as designed. It may work in a dojo during intense and hands on training with rubber blades but your opponent wont be a buddy from your dojo whos moves and reactions you are fammiliar with. A real assailant may do something that is dumb, something your training partner would never even think of, but it may get the better of your technique.

This isnt to say all knives are equally suited to combat but the knives mentioned in this post are all capable knives (Although if the shrike is as thin as said above it wouldnt be my first choice for an edc anyways). I would decide from your own taste and view of the knives. Sorry for the rambling but I think these thoughts everytime someone asks about the difference in several SD knives. You get lots of opinions and little to no event based facts or feedback.
 
I wanted to be clear that what I was saying is my opinion. My opinion on the three knives I named is based on actually owning and using these knives over time. I've seen several liner locks fail spine whack tests, and to me that make the knife unexceptable for self defense or any type of stabbing at all. The knives I listed I've owned and used and never experienced any lock problems. There are hard parts (bones) all over the human body. Perhaps the single greatest problem with carrying a folder for sd is that it folds. To have the strongest lock possible seems very logical to me for that reason. Sure a liner lock may be fine, but to me it's a chance I don't want to take regardless if I'm chipping bark off a tree, or especailly if I may consider using a knife for defense.
I feel the three knives I listed are the best knives because, in my opinion, they offer the best combination of lock strenth, handle grip, and can be used for cutting of stabbing without limitation. Are there better knives? Probably, but not that I've owned of handle or used. I would fully trust any of the three with my life, and fingers.
Also, I feel that in general frame locks are the most reliable locks there are, due to the fact that if your holding it, there is almost no chance of the lock disengaging, where as a liner lock can simply slip off the tang reguardless of how thick the liner may or may not be. If you feel good about a liner lock that's fine, but I believe there are better choices. Any knife is better than none, but If you want "the best", I don't think a liner lock fits the bill. I also believe that a knife that's just a small amount superior is worth having.
 
I agree with BigJim that a knife should be the last resort for Self Defense. Pepper Spray is better for someone without training as it is usually debilitating but not lethal to the attacker.

The Zero Tolerance knife is a great knife, and would be my choice of the three for SD. But I would rather have a knife with less of a tactical look if I had to explain to a jury why I was carrying the knife.
 
I would agree that there are liner lock failures and do know about bones but seriously any liner lock that weak or deffective should be visably apperent and to me falls on the buyer to spot and avoid. I guess I should qualify what I think constitutes a "Well made liner lock". I do think in cheap knives they should be avoided. Aside form the poorly made liner lock though the pivot is much weaker than the lock and much stronger than you arms (again unless a crapy pivot i used). I will say that a liner lock is something that needs to be inspected for fit and function by the knife maker or company and not all knife companies can be trusted to do this. Even so with any lock you should check it regularly to see if the engaging surfaces are worn. Thus if you leave the house with a faulty liner lock or a frame lock that is engaging poorly, I think that falls on the person. Any knife can have a faulty lock regardless of type. All in all I just dont think amongst these well made knives lock strength needs to be worried about for SD as long as the manufacturing hasnt let a poor lock up slip through wich happens with all lock types.

I wasnt questioning your choices so much as the rational of these posts in general. Like you I recomended knifes based on personal experience with grip (I like the 3 I have held in this post), the shape (all four of these knives are capable of stabbing or slicing and none have two edges or any other consideration in my mind) and my taste. For me lock type is not important but the execution and materials in the lock are. I just dont want the OP to confuse this with anyone bieng able to tell him how combat effective these knives are when compared to eachother. I really mean no disprepect to you or you choices, they are all great knives.
 
No disrespect taken, Big Slim. It always comes down to personal opinion in the end when picking a knife for anything really.
 
endura wave...................instant deployment if you need it, that will be more important than blade shape or whatever, the others are nice but realistically do not give a great advantage over the simple endura wave.

and trust me, they are easy to keep scary sharp.
 
A good self defense knife will often have a few general features. The first is grip. Blood is much more slippery than oil. The second is a good hold; the last thing you want in a confrontation is for someone else to get your blade. The third is an easy opening mechanism...most modern knives arguably have this. Some people say the forth is the ability to use the blade as an impact weapon; personally I disagree, but many self defense folders are made with this in mind and some artists strongly promote this idea. Some others say the fifth is intimidation. I strongly agree with that as if one yields a knife, they damned will better be ready to carve someone up alive.

The concept of a liner lock failing is from what I have seen not from the design of the lock, but from accidental disengagement, particularly from upward thrusts from right handed users. I should specify that the Emerson liner is deeper in the knife and I have never heard of this problem with them. People are generally just soft tissue and they cut through very easily. I have seen people do this with Axis as well. The Chinook was overbuilt for a move called the back cut...for those already introduced to the concept, the reason of this overbuilding would be in the case of lock failure during the back cut, full severing of at least 2-3 fingers.

I also argue that impact resistance should be considered in combat knives, as people in this day and age wear metal objects.

What knife would I personally recommend? The Spyderco Civilian. People with and without training can use this knife very effectively and it one of the longest running folding knives without a change to the blade. Hands down, this knife is effective. The thing about this knife, which other folding knives do not offer as much of is control. Slicing is more effective than stabbing. Many people try to tell me in a situation where adrenaline occurs things are different. I agree; things happen in a very different view. However, when that happened to me, the Civilian was still used effectively and got me out of harm's way.
 
i dont think the grips are secure enough on the SOCOM or the shrike for SD, i like a more secure grip myself for SD, of the 3 the ZT looks like it would have a better grip, i like a pronounced choil on my SD knives ie emerson CQC8 or '12, crawford kasper or perfigo, some dont have a lot of choil and still have a good grip like the spyderco ATR for example, but the shrike is not one of those, and the SOCOM grip isnt the best in that regard either imho.

i do like the SOCOM though and have had several of them but imho its not an optimal SD knife. do check out the SOCOM elite vs the std SOCOM, the elite's liner lock is a lot more secure looking to me, though the std SOCOMs are good in that regard also, i just think the elites a lot neater knife.

some of the best fighting knives on the planet are liner locks (ie emerson CQC8, crawfords kasper and perfigo) so to delete them from consideration is a mistake imho, nothing wrong with a well fitted LL.
 
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