Military knives good or bad, where do you stand?

not2sharp

not2sharp

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In Ed Fowler's KNIFE TALK there is an article which reads in part. "...I finally concluded that the men who designed knives' for the military, the men who purchased knives for the military and the men who made knives for the military were not all primarily concerned with making the best tool for the job."

I have assembled a small but interesting collection of military knives, and over the years my views on military knives has evolved; but I'll leave the question with you. Are military knives good tools or simply junk imposed on our military (anybody's military) by a self involved bureacracy?

Let us know about some of the military knives you've played with.

Definition: for the sake of this discussion lets limit military knives to mean knives produced and issued to the troops by the government(s).
 
Since I'm no expert on this, I'll keep my comments brief
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Military knives are designed with a couple of things in mind that may not be such big issues to a civilian buyer:

1) Cost to manufacture - e.g. raw cost to make a gazillion of them, hence heavily discounted price in bulk.

2) Contract ability and politics - who can reliably produce a gazillion of these in a year, whose state are they from, and do we owe them any favors.

3) Sheer, blind idiot-proofing. Soldiers can break or screw up anything. How can we minimize that or its consequences.

I feel that these three concerns contribute to military knives often not matching the ideal knife a private individual would choose for any given job.

-Drew
 
Well you are probably going to have a short talk as the vast majority of the knives I ever saw in the military were private purchases authorized for carry. The others, Ka-Bars, Camilluses, bayonets, etc., were probably chosen after a cost benefit analysis made them, "good enough and easily replaced," just like most military equipment.

The Colt M-16 and the AK variants from almost everywhere else are not the best assault rifles money can MAKE, they are among the best ones that can be had at a pretty reasonable price point for mass production. That same logic makes the military knives pretty utilitarian and inexpensive if not some special forces commissioned exotica.

Probably the best military knife "issued" today is the Leatherman in various configs. The so-called F/UKs can easily be surpassed by a smart civilian designed weapon/tool.

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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, 1783

 
Hoi An RVN 1966 issued a Camillus made USMC fighting/utility knife(better known under the generic K-Bar name). Served me well for 2 tours in SouthEast Asia.I still have that knife.Still holds a fine edge and is strong and still has a solid leather stacked washer handel after over 30 years. My opinion is this is the best of the issue knives given to troops.
A military knife is primarily a utility knife and should be able to preform a wide varity of field tasks and still hold a decent edge and not rot,rust,or break under field conditions. The USMC F/U does an admirable job in the field.
Another good issue knife is the knife the USMC called the TL29.A linemans knife,spear point blade and a locking screwdriver blade.I still carry the Case version of this knife as a work knife everyday.

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Those who beat their arms into plowshares will plow for those who do not

 
We were given GDR-made Ak bajonets after basic training (I spend my mandatory year in the German airborne 93-94, so there was lots of surplus stuff around). If the rumour that the bajonets made in the GDR are the best the Eastern block could produce is true, then I feel sorry for the Russians. The handle has an almost square profile and is made from some cheap plastic, the blade is chisel-ground with a (useless) saw edge on the back. The knife comes with a plastic sheath and can be coupled to it to form some sort of wire cutter. To our amazement, this setup failed to cut through the NATO standard concertina wire (dented the blade instead). As a utility blade, this knife is almost useless. Mounted to an AK muzzle it is a fearsome weapon, and the fact that the point isn't that pointy and the blade not that sharp is irrelevant. I guess that most military knife test include prying with the blade, something that soldiers shouldn't but invariably will do with equipment that will be replaced if it breaks. This would explain why chiselground blades with relatively low hardness are so common (They're also cheap to produce). Interestingly enough, the next generation of fighting knives for the Bundeswehr (The ACK - Advanced Combat Knife, marketed by Colt as CTCK, built by Eickhorn) looks almost like the AK bajonet design, with an improved handle and gadgets like a sharpening surface on the sheath.

Take care,
Tobse !
 
I'm positive on military knives.

I enjoy them to a large extent because I enjoy military history. But, in building up a collection, there are a number of knives which I have found to provide excellent value for the money.

The U.S. Mk I, MKII, and Q225 stack up well against most of the commercial knives of the era and still provide a very competitive level of utility today. Similarly the Phrobis M9 which now sell for about $150 compares well with most of the factory knives in that price range. Still others like the Swedish 1898 or Spanish 1969 Cetme bayonet provide great value for under $20 a copy.

Military knives generally share some common characteristics:
1) They tend to be utilitarian (often plain or plain ugly.
2) They tend to be over-engineered
3) They tend to be tempered to lower RC levels

But, whether they are too soft; or, the current commercial knives are too hard, is a matter of taste. Do you prefer a knife that dulls rapidly, but is easy to re-sharpen and less likely to break, or, a knife that has good edge retention but is hard to re-sharpen and more likely to break?

I agree with Ed Fowlers assumption about the procurement process; but, I also suspect that troops in combat cannot be made to carry ineffective junk for long. Hence, a battle tested knife is likely to be worth having.

I wish many of makers of the current camp knives in my collection would offer to sponsor an infantry company for a year, we would quickly find out whether any of the current flock of knives are worth having.
 
I love military knives. I have a special interest in them since i sold surplus for quite a while. I never thought of bringing the subject up in the forums since I thought a thread of what Carlsons raiders carried
would probably have gotten confused with the Carson Ray carries.:-) It's great to see these different threads appearing. These forums are getting better all the time.
 
I'm with you guys, I'm all for it. Lets talk old military knives!!
Frank Trzaska
 
I like looking for surplus http://www.omahas.com./
Nice unissued WW2 MK1 navy knives here for $99 Not a steal but it's nice to see unissued knives for sale. Has anybody seen them at a lower price?
 
Tom,

What are some your favorite military knives. Do you have any to add to my list?
 
Hard pick a favorite just like in guns they're all special because they all have their own history. Like everybody else guess I love the classics. How can anybody not like the marine kabar? :-) I'll get a to a Case V-44 since I sold one years ago and regretted it since. I liked theater knives before they became popular. I like to let my mind run and imagine the guy that carried it and where he was. ya I know it's silly but it reminds me of when I was a kid listening to my father and uncles telling their stories. Now that they're gone I wish i paid more attention.
Gotta have a Fairbairn, Pal, Cattarougas, they're all classics. Although I buy knives in all price ranges and conditions I go the extra bucks for a real quality piece since the ones in good condition are harder to find and the prices will always go up. At one time I starting getting into bayonets but lost interest. They just don't have that "something" that a knife has.
 
You would be impressed with the fake bayonet I picked up for my collection. Fortunately, the dealer and I are on fairly good terms and he promptly let me know that he suspected the piece was a fake.

The bayonet is a U.S. Model 1861 Dahlgren. According to the dealer, who has been in business for over 35 years, he purchased the item as an "original" many years ago and didn't discover that it was a fake until Benard Levine identified it as such. I purchased the item for approximately 15% of the price of a genuine copy and took it home for further examination.

Using Janzen's Notebook, Cole's Military Knives, and Kiesling's Bayonets of the World (plus a good magnifying glass and plenty of light), I was able to identify a number of errors in the manufacture of this replica. Most of the subtle differences involved the shape of the hilt and the placement or ommission of some pins. I also located a partially removed "JAPAN" well within the bayonet's rifle lug slot.

So that's one less replica for you to worry about. It also looks great with the rest of the bayonet collection; and I no longer feel the need to purchase an "original" copy of this bayonet.

Lesson learned: Always deal with reputable people and if something doesn't feel quite right check it out throughly.

p.s. the Japanese copy was produced during the early 70s. So the bayonet was old enough to add to the illusion.

 
Two very good points, If you like the low dollar stuff your pretty safe. It's not worth the time and effort to fake a Mark 1 or Mark 2 type knife. Made in the millions and low value make these great collector items for the wary. The other is buying known fakes. It takes it off the market and adds something different to your collection. I also buy known fakes but at such a low rate the fakers would be out of business if they kept at it for long. Hopefully they do. On the big budget knives be careful, V-42's and such have been made for years so they can be naturally aged by now. The best defense is knowledge. Know what to look for before you plunk down your hard earned cash.

Frank
 
I've learned long ago to give up ther illusion that I'm going to walk into any military show and come home with the bargain of the century.
For the most part things sell for what they're worth. I've done ok a few times but never got those super finds I always hear about. But as the above websites show there are plenty of real nice knives in exremely good condition for less than poeple are paying for the factory knives they buy here on the net. That might have been one of the things that attracted me to them in the first place. No matter what my income level was at various times in my life i was almost always able to take home something to make me happy for the money i had to spend. That's a lot harder to do at a custom knife show.
 
Its more than just the $ value of the knife.

I ran into a couple of military knife dealers at a show recently. After spending maybe an hour talking about many of the knives on their table, the armies which carried them, the battles in which they were used, and some memorable characters of the era. One of the dealers looked around the room and then turned to the other and said "I understand why military knives and bayonets are collectable; they are artifacts of an age and each bears an interesting story. But, I'll never understand what people find interesting with new knives; there's no story there."

I collect plenty of new knives, so I guess I can't entirely agree with him. Yet the old military knives do bring an earlier age to life. By studying details like the adjustable barrel rings on the early bayonets, or the feathered brass hilts on the US Artillery short swords, we learn a little about mass manufacturing and workmanship standards of the period. Then there are those very long sword bayonets that so clearly hint of military tactics in an age before the advent of the machine gun.

There are plenty of stories to examine; just an additional benefit of collecting military knives.

 
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